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2478 Topic: who played better Boks or AB's?
radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
who played better Boks or AB's?
September 30, 2012, 09:49:40

After two clear cut results from the two leading teams it is with interest what the forum thinks of which team showed and displayed the most potential and why?

 

There was certainly a lot of tries and enough action to analyse and breakdown for each game but my question is that after the massive result that the Boks laid down to the AB's the AB's hit their straps and showed that they will come to SA prepared.

 

The confidence in both squads will be high but more importantly I believe that the performance of the AB's away from NZ against the Argies who up to now were showing massive promise must surely rate as a more complete game. Particuarly that the Argies were at full strength, however I thought the crowd were not as vocal or parochial as I thought they were. Add in the fact that they are probably the most courteous people to attend a rugby match made it all seem odd hehe - maybe Crz could answer why this is so?

 

For SA the stand out performers were obviously Louw and Habana but I thought Bekker and our front row had their best games since the start of the RC. Goosen should have scored and but for a little of inexperience he would have been celebrating his first try.

 

However, lets celebrate the fact the he took the ball to the line more than once and all of a sudden the 'red sea parted'. He distributed well with out being over zealous and done the basics extremely well and to me that is more important than being razzle dazzle and trying to create to many opportunities.

 

Though many might disagree I think that JDV played his best game and that could possibly be because he was back closer to the action in his desired position. Kirchner has probably kept his position for the rest of the year particuarly after the fact that Lambie was really only solid at the least. Houggard for me is sadly not getting into the action and is goiung missing through out the game too much for my liking.

 

I am not convinced that Taute showed enough to be considered a start against the AB's particuarly that the Wallaby backline had such massiv disruptions against them for a good part of the game and he still didnt stamp his authority when he could have.

 

Concerningly SA are again leaving many many points behind and this is an area that HM must surely be racking his head around. I havent read any stats yet but I am sure thay make for someinteresting reading.

 

However the way we executed our tries was superb and the cleaning out of rucks and our mauling will be something the AB's must be looking at and thinking how do we counter this threat. If SA can minimise turnovers, keep the kicking to land rather than hand to a minimum counter attacking by the AB's.

 

The Bok aggression and passion was powerful and absorbing and this in no doubt will be worth points for us.

 

Now for the AB's they done ok


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10340
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
September 30, 2012, 10:58:18

radtad

It really is a difficult question to answer.   The All Blacks played against Argentina - who to my mind tried to play a running game - but who in the process made too many handling errors - and the Springboks played against a weakened Aussie side.

The really interesting question is whcih of the two teams showed more improvement on their display at Dunedin.   In the case of the All Blacks I think that Carter represented a major improvement.   On the other hand there was evidence of some defensive problems that was explouted to some extend by the Argentinians.   However, the latter did make too many handling errors - that was used to maximum advantage by the All Blacks.   The All Black forwards had the upper hand yesterday.

Now we must look at the Springbok performance yesterday.   They really showed major improvement in backline play - with much less ineffective kicking on display - since Goosen came into the picture.   There loosies showed huge improvement and the return of Bekker and Etzebeth was a major factor in line outs.   All in all the improvement showed by of the Springboks was more than that of the All Blacks.   

However, there is another issue as well - and that centers around Francois Steyn.   Will his inevitable return have a positive or negative impact on the backline performances?   This will only become clear on Saturday.   There are arguments to the efect that he would be better than Taute - but then wouldhe fit into a fast flowing game - or will the jeopardising of backline play shift from Morne to Francois Steyn?   

Another issue that will have to be dealt with by the Springboks is their kicking at goal.   Yesterday was bad - but less so than in Dunedin.   However, goal kicking was not as important as was the case in Dunedin - but it is still a factor.    I was surprised by the decision to give the early kicks to an obviously nervous Goosen and then to use Pienaar for all the remaining kicks - even when Jantjies was on.   I don't know any other reason than nervousmess on the part of Goosen for the missed kicks - in Super 15 Goosen really kicked well.   I think tht this coming week Pinaar and Goosen will spend hours in kicking at goal.   Maybe Meyer should ask Naas Botha for some help in dealing with that issue. 

All in all I still think the Springboks will prove to be the most-improved team on Saturday and that they will beat the All Blacks.

     


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
September 30, 2012, 11:46:35

Thanks Mike,

 

Good response and pretty clear cut around your reasoning. Both teams took the attitude to be positive in there gameplan. But you have to take the fact that the AB's went to Argentina and put 50 points on them and that is a mean feat to do considering the results thus far.

 

I agree that there were defensive frailties in the AB's that I am sure HM will look very very close. However, unlike the Wallabies the AB's will punish us for any indescrections we may have. On a positive there werent many we gave up to the Wallabies.

 

Interesting and it is pertinent to point it out that when the AB's have lost to France or the Wallabies it has been when those teams have been sincerely unpredictable in their running lines and attacking attitude. The first 16 minutes from the Argies showed enough flair to prove that the AB's dont like that style of play thrown at them - Goosen maybe unleashed to play his game considering we have nothing to lose?

 

The disease in our kicking game needs to be fixed as it is demoralising for all our forwards to do the hard work and then see our kickers not pay them back for the hard work done. As for Dan Carter he certainly will test Goosen and our backline as he really played a masterful game that know other flyhalve is capable of. He ran at the line, passed, tackled, kicked and created opportunity and thats what really made the difference in unleashing the AB backline. He is a factor that the Boks will need to counter otherwise he will have us chasing him and Jane/Savea all day.

 

Goosen and the attitude he had also resulted in the Bok backline finally seeing the ball get to Habana. It was also refreshing to see our backs play a prominent part in the game and the Boks finally move away from the tactic of senseless up and unders or kicking the ball to hand rather than land. Interesting to see with Steyn this week but all intent would be that if he is fit he would slot back into second five which di work well against the AB's in our last game against them.

 

I said the AB's would win this game a few times now I think that physically and tactically we are nearly there but  mentally we are  just not better than them at this point in time and though we were powerful and exciting and a whole lot more adventorous the AB's have the compsure and experience to close us down and shut out the game that we just dont have yet.


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 499
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
September 30, 2012, 14:49:43

The Boks needed to improve their game and against a weakened Aussie side looked good at home. However the AB's have been cruising through the 1st four rounds and have always had the potential to open up and smash whoever is in front of them like what just happened in Argentina. This is the difference between the AB's and other sides they can win at or away from home, but they way they won in Argentina against a foward pack that OZ or the Boks could not dominate speaks volumes.  Yes the Boks were good but the AB's were sublime against a full strength opponent in their backyard, so advantage All Blacks.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8980
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
September 30, 2012, 16:10:32

It is actually a very simple one to answer. The Pumas were shockingly bad. Their defence was like a sieve. Little passion and a host of unforced errors. A bit lik a golfer you cant sink a put or a tennis player who keeps missing his first serve - simply an awful display.

Oz at least turned up to play rugby. They however got cruched and escaped lightly with three tries misssed by centimeters and a number of penalties missed. It shouldhave been a 50 pointer The poor goal kicking is a worry as it cost us the match against the abs which should have been comfortably won.

No when one thinks we were 20 points or so better than the abs in Dunedin then one has to concur with Mallet that we can and should win at Soweto.

Boks definitely came out of the last two matches as being the best side in the competition. Play as well again and they will win. Have an argies type of day and they will lose. The abs pack got crunched in Dunedin and more of the same awaits them here.

 

 

 


lunatic

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 244
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
September 30, 2012, 16:36:50

 The All Blacks had better opposition, played away from home and had a bigger margin (although the ref was kak) - The ABs were the better team, but the improvement made by the Bokke is remarkable.  If they can up the tempo just a bit and execute a little better - we will win against the ABs.  Only then will we know who is the better team.


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 499
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
September 30, 2012, 17:52:50

The best team in the Rugby Championship has already been decided. The better team next Saturday if the Bok win will be undecided as it will be one all in the series. The Bok team can win against the AB especially in SA, however what has been shown is that the AB's can win away playing any team..  Beeno1 man NO ONE outside your world thinks the Boks are the best team in the competition after last 2 games, Boks 2 wins 2 losses, 1 draw, AB's 5 wins and the Championship, even if the AB's lose they  will still be the best team in the world. In Dunedin the AB's cruised to a win and then turned on the turbo's in Argentina, if in your imaginary world the Boks were 20 points better than AB's the rest of the normal rugby world certainly didn't see it that way.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10340
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
September 30, 2012, 19:32:38

I am really of the opinion that at present the All Blacks are the better team - irrespective of what happens on Saturday - but I am also looking at the future.   This is where the future All Black team for 2015 WC would come from

I have done a computer check up on the current All Black team and came to a horrifying conclusion conclusion if I was an All Black supporter:- especially bearing in mind the current players in the team:-

*   The average age of forwards in the team         -   32 years

*   The average age of backline Players               -    27,3 years

*   The average age of all team members            -    29,9 years

That means that by the time of the 2015 WC - the average age of the team will be 33 years old - a real collection of rugby "geriatrics"   That means that the All Blacks over the next two season will have to play younger players - but where would they come from.   The members at present under consideration - are really not the tops - I mean Retallick, Cade, Cruden, Barrett, etc..    The latter group is really Super 15 players - not real international standard.

If I was in the All Black Management - I would start trying to find replacements - but the swoon they are under as the World Cup Winners and now the Championship winners is obviously clouding logical thinking and does not bother the All Blacks in the least.   Proibably 2011 and 2012 was the glory years of All Black Rugby - nice present thoughts - but really destined for an irreversible major downward trend.   Last year for this win - next year the decline will inevitably set in.   In any event McCaw wants to take a sx month sabattical - but is that going to help at all?  Doubt it very much.  Way too oldto continue to play competitive rugby.

Just as an aside - the average age of the Springbok team members is 25   


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 01, 2012, 02:23:31

Mike makes sense the age averages - by the time the Boks get to the next RWC then our team would be averaging 29 and to me that would be the Boks peaking? I agree fully your thoughts that the AB's are showing massive weakness for their future and it looks like they are going to take Richie and Dan all the way to the next RWC. And as ypou stated those players for the AB's coming through are not international standard but more super 15 but time will tell I suppose.

 

The Bok depth and next generation of players far exceeds the talent coming out of NZ so I am sure we start seeing the results over the next year or so. I just hope we can manage our players welfare between now and the RWC because if we dont then our chances will decrease significantly. I do think the AB's are managing this area way better than any other team in the world so SA would be wise to see what they are doing better as they have only one friontline player Richard Kahui who is out with injury.

 

We need the Goosens, Bekkers, Eztebeths, Tautes etc to get the runs on the board over the next few years so that when they come to the RWC they wont be overawed by the massive pressure that it brings.

 

But in essence I agree totally in your assessment - Even silly brotherbeens has been hyping on about the Boks just needing time

 

 


moolaa

Status: Squad member
Posts: 542
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 01, 2012, 07:08:29

 "The Bok depth and next generation of players far exceeds the talent coming out of NZ"

Can you back that up with any actual evidence or is it just one-eyed wishful thinking!

Do you think Hansen is going to just keep this same squad through to the next WC; I don't think so!

We introduce new players as and when required and very rarely are they inferior to the players they replace. Hence our overall record against all teams.

So stop all this talk of Bok depth. It's a fallacy and has been since 1992. You've had 20 years to get up to the mark and you're still a way off yet.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8980
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 01, 2012, 08:37:17

Moola please oak tr yand appreciate the current situation. The Boks buried you nguys in Dunedin. Only an absudly bad goal kicking display prevented a big Bok win. Your forwarss wer edomianted and you backs cut dow.

Oz were also hammered the ycould not handle the physicality of the Boks and the injuries reflected that.

As i said the tradgedy was tha tif we have won the nz game the log points would ahve been 17 -16 in favour of nz. Soweto would hav edecided the issue. As mattters stand the ods would then favour the Boks.

Be assured thimgs are looking up for theBoks. A good coach, grea ttaent and currentl yalll is going a sI hoped it would. The gragh is heading noth whilst the abs grah i sheading south.

Bwahahahahahaha ou moola is stuck in a time warp! The Mighty Boks are set to regain their traditional mastery of the wee abs - you know like over those many pre isolation decades. Hahahahhahahahahaha - but as Mike pointed out these abs have swallowed their own hype t osuch an extent they cant see the wood from the trees.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10340
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 01, 2012, 08:37:47

Moodaa

Although in general  I obviously support the Springbok team - I always am in a broader sense also thinking about the interest of rugby in general.    I cannot state more emphatically than I have always done that the All Blacks is an absolute requirement in world rugby - hence my concern about the age factor.

I started off an exercise last week to look at the issue of Meyer's constant harping about the fact that the Springboks team is young and needs to be built up from scratch.   I then took all the team players for Saturday and work out their team average age.    In the process I found that De Villiers at 31 was the oldest Springbok player - the next oldest being Liebenberg - th bench hooker at 30.   The latter is temporary - since Bismarck Du Plessis at 27 will come back,   There are 2 pkayers at 29 years of age and 6 playes at 28 years of age in the Springbok team.   On the other end there are 2 aged 20 in the team as well.   Taking the team and bench players average age into account it came to 25 years.    That basically indicated that Meyer as correct about the youthfulness of the Springboks.

In essence I believe that age play a very improtant role in a physical contact sport like rugby - with rare exceptions most players perform at peak between the ages of 24 and 30.   There is also another factor that I have always emphasized - older players seems to get injured more frequently and take considerably longer than younger ones to get over their injuries.   Be it as it may - I also stated that again with rare exceptions players over 28 should be replaced by younger ones - bearing in mind that by the next WC they would be 31 years old and passed their prime playing career.

However, the issue of McCaw's sabattical eventually got me to check on the age factor in All Black Rugby and that is where the above contribution stemmed from.   I would say the signs are very bad - if the age issue is borne in mind.   At various stages I mentioned this in threads and was assured by my New Zealand friends on the Board that there are adequate players coming through and names were provided.   I decided to follow th players mentioned - especially since we have all the Super 15 games and ITM matches shown on local TV.   

Although the players mentioned performed well and in the All Blacks side - where some of them - like Retallick, Cruden  and Cade already played for the Akll Blacks - they are definitely not up to the standard displayed by their predecessors.   

I think there need to be serious discussions about that factor in New Zealand - matter of fact it should be a prime objective to look seriously at a replacement programme - but this is not done properly, since some of the most important and most popular All Blacks are really also involved.   That basically is a wrong way to look at issue and it can have serious detimental effects on New Zealand rugby.

This is nothing new - it is th unfortunate side-effect of winning the WC and has happened in all winners of the WC thus far.   However, in New Zealand it is even worse than it was in other countries - hence mys erious concern about the issue.


moolaa

Status: Squad member
Posts: 542
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 01, 2012, 12:24:27

 Mike.

I appreciate your comments but as I said above, Hansen isn't going to hang on to the old guard indefinitely. We definitely want to win every test and it's sad that the Boks seem to have abandoned that psyche they always had pre-isolation.

In our current squad we have the following players who will not be too old come 2015:

Forwards; Franks Bros,Faumuina,Romano,Whitelock, Vito, Retallick, Cane

Backs: Aaron Smith, Cruden, Barrett, Ben Smith, Dagg, Savea with Kahui to come back and SBW if he wants to!

So there's the basis of the next generation and whilst they perhaps haven't proved conclusively they have what it takes, they'll only get better with experience and I can't remember any of them disgracing themselves so far.

You have the same situation with the Boks. Goosen and Taute acquitted themselves on the weekend but I wouldn't rave about them just yet.

I  always feared this with a WC competition. Teams spend all their time building for 4 years for one Cup and all the other comps take a back seat. I'd hate it to get like football where just about every game between World Cups or qualifying for them is regarded as a "friendly". Can't imagine the Boks vs ABs ever being referred to as a "friendly"!

I actually hate the tag of being dubbed World Champions for 4 years. We were only Champions in October 2011, not now, and of course it's not a true Championship as you don' get to play everyone.

Bring back the tours!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10340
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 01, 2012, 12:44:04

Moodaa

In lighter vein - I read once from the book of Billy Conolly where he wrote about a mate of him going tp Ladbrokes to take a bet on a game between Celtic and Chelsea.   He was informed that they do not take bets on friendly games.   His response was "Celtic never plays a friendly game".

The problem you mentioned  is entirely related to MONEY and the fact that rugby and virtually all othr games are nowadays professional sport.   Unfortunately it is also the side-effect of the soc-called World Cup competitions  in the various codes of sport.


polyboy

Status: Squad member
Posts: 499
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 01, 2012, 13:40:15

Radtad1 respectively disagree that SA have greater depth than NZ, primarily because if you look at the under 20's tournament it is NZ that has dominanted there up until 2012 and even then they went through to the finals and were beaten finalist by the baby boks. Apparently SA has 6 x as many registered players than NZ but the way NZ dominates the rugby scene consistently  suggests that even with a smaller player pool that NZ has the more talented players than other nations. A controversial and volatile statement I know but it is based on wins by the AB's, the 7's, womans rugby and under 20's, but welcome contructive debate.  The age factor is deceptive because it is based on current crop of players but selections never remain static,  and I think what you'll see is dividends from the under 20's team starting to pay out up until the next RWC as it will for the Boks. And beeno come on man give up on your "Boks dominated in Dunedin" rant, Boks lost. Onto a new game man, Like they say your only as good as your last game, so based on that hopefully both teams will open it up next week, I think the AB's will at least because they have the RC already.


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 02, 2012, 01:56:36

Poly - appreciate your points and your arguments do have weight behind them. No doubt NZ has produced the Lomus, Cullens, Zinzans of the game and I assume the development programmes in NZ are much more effective than  in SA why you state what you do. The trouble with having a bigger player pool to choose from is the fact that many of the really good ones can actually fall through an in-adequate programme that exists in SA 

 

Boklogic made some really good points about the challenges that we face in SA that NZ and Australian dont have to deal with. The Administrative and political influences and the minefield environment that our coaches and players live with on a daily basis really is a massive challenge to overcome. The inconsistent movement of coaches and changes we have to endure every 4 years really is not good for the game in SA.

 

I am not looking for an excuse but SA actually admire the way that NZ seem to have things organised and run their administration like a well drilled machine unlike the un-professional issues we deal with publicly on a constant basis in SA.

 

If SA are able to be a lot more intelligent in various things such as player welfare even though my Bok brothers think its a joke and develop a strategy that will change incrementally our 10 man game strategy and even bite the bullet and maybe push Meyers contract out for at least another two years after the RWC then I think the long term strategy for the Boks will start to match the AB record particuarly that we have a lot to catch up on.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8980
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 02, 2012, 08:33:00

Polyboy you are all confused. I was talking about the last two Saturdays and maintaining quite correctly that the Boks have been the best side. Its no use complaining about me saying the Boks were the dominant side because they were by some way. Goal kicking has cost us dearly this season in a level of performance with the boot few would have believed possible. If Morne had kicked to his usual standards we would now be topping the log.

"And beeno come on man give up on your "Boks dominated in Dunedin" rant, Boks lost. Onto a new game man"    Polyboy please oak - you are not the only one allowed to quote the past here. Hahhahahahahahahaha - lets hope Polyboy sticks to his calling re the kettle!!

 A typical post from ou ragtad! - SA actually admire the way that NZ seem to have things organised and run their administration like a well drilled machine unlike the un-professional issues we deal with publicly on a constant basis in SA.    What else does ou ragtad admire so much - well everything related to the abs - Bwahahahhahahahahahaha rather like a moonstruck teenager!!!

Nope we dont admire them in the slightest. However I will agree with you that our admin and political interference has handed many a match to the abs. It will hardly take rocket science to have an admin as well run as the abs and ours would be ethical as well!

Again I note the immortal words of Eddie Jones for the benefit of Polyboy and company. - if the South Africans get their act together no country would live with them. Something the wee abs are about to experience under the Meyer term is my guess!  Hahahahahahahahaha

 

 


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 02, 2012, 11:43:06

Thanks brotherbeens Im starting to see you come around slowly to my thinking hehe you give me heart!

 

I admire so much that you agree with me hehe...........


hakwa

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2186
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 02, 2012, 12:03:26

 Is that a rhetorical question radtad1?

Let me quote Habana the best winger in the world according to Boks fans," Look at the scoreboard" :-))


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 02, 2012, 13:02:40

hhhhmmmmmm that would be yes


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8980
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 02, 2012, 15:29:59

Ed could you pease remove all pictures of mcaaaaw from the board. Lets not forget we have standards here and it doesn't help ragtad and his unhealthy ab obsession.

Thanks.

 


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: who played better Boks or AB's?
October 03, 2012, 01:32:38

come on brotherbeens grow a backbone your starting to sound like a Stormers supporter hehe 


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