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2200 Topic: Some food for thought...
Username

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1098
Some food for thought...
September 09, 2012, 20:36:41

So, we hear Morne was by far the worst 10 on display. Lets have a closer look.

Morne Steyn
Kick/Pass/Run: 9/8/3
Metres Run: 17
Clean Breaks: 0
Defenders Beaten: 0
Offloads: 1
Turnovers: 2
Tackles: 7/0

Johan Goosen
Kick/Pass/Run: 1/4/3
Metres Run: 14
Clean Breaks: 0
Defenders Beaten: 0
Offloads: 0
Turnovers: 1
Tackles: 2/0

Quade Cooper
Kick/Pass/Run: 15/26/5
Metres Run: 6
Clean Breaks: 0
Defenders Beaten: 1
Offloads: 0
Turnovers: 3
Tackles: 2/1

So, what can we learn from these stats? Well, Cooper was brought into play far more than either Morne or Goosen. Looking at the amount of ball Pienaar had - he made 59 passes - it is clear to see that our reliance was, yet again, on quick passes from 9 to a forward to punch it up. Morne did in fact deliver on more fronts that Mr.Blooper and Goosen was just about on par in the end. However much you all thought Morne was the problem, it just doesnt add up upon closer inspection. This ties in perfectly with what I said in another post. There is too little deception in our play and too much reliance on these big ball carriers. What makes a backline play work? Yes, distribution is important, but distribution is not the issue. Morne has taken the ball to the line many times and shown deft touches, but it isn't enough. When you have a big forward thoughtlessly running directly into a defender, it becomes all too easy. Our big ball carriers do not even target the weak shoulder of the defender and there is very little movement off him. Something I noted about the 2004 Boks was the movement off the ball. They had loose forwards that could carry strongly, yet offload well in contact, but it was the willingness to support the ball carrier that made our attack so lethal. It's a shame our season that year was regarded for defence alone as the work ball in hand was truly exceptional, particularly away from him. This is the next evolution for the team, I foresee a gradual building on this plan by Meyer once he has the pieces in place up front, but for now we must acknowledge the key facets of our play and attribute measured praise/criticism. Morne, yet again, is not our chief problem. No matter how much you want to believe it, it just isn't true. And for all the bleating for reasons why we lost not one person has mentioned that Jean missed all his tackles and was again out played by his opposite number! Jean, Mvovo and Alberts were our least effective players. In a tight contest, they failed to deliver. Added to that, our front row was heavily penalised. Our scrum was simply not good enough.

 


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2919
RE: Some food for thought...
September 09, 2012, 21:40:07

It this is what you refer to as proof- just copy and paste from a stats website?

These are a few stats that are meaningless within the context of the game. Have you ever heard of "quality". 

Metres gained is the most meaningless stat. Morne Steyn stands far deeper than any international flyhalf- so it should read metres lost for him. No point gaining metres if you are standing in the car park to recieve the ball of set pieces.

Also you have not referenced your source for the stats. Any 3rd party from where you obtained the stats from should be included within your arguement because-

1. The source may be inaccurate in this instance or generally have a reputation of being inaccurate. Are you just taking for granted these stats are correct? How are they collected?

2. You may have made these stats yourself to support your biased arguement.

Many of Mornes Tackles are not actually tackles. More like a Naas Botha tackle. Just standing in the way or dancing around the player until a team mate makes the real tackle.

Quade Cooper at least creates tries. That is why he is brought into play more than Morne- He is the general who is the primary decision maker on the field. That is the role of a flyhalf. If Morne did not do so many aimless kicks perhaps his teams mates would bring him into the game more. The scrum half is also carrying the responsibilities of the flyhalf, much like FDP. The best backline try scored against the English this year, Ruan Piennar did a skip pass(missing out Morne). 


Username

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1098
RE: Some food for thought...
September 09, 2012, 21:47:51

Sharkbok, you really are too stupid for words. Please recite for me the title of this thread, can you do that for me. As per it being useless, I put this up to create discussion. You are however incapable of that. Cooper at least creates tries? Cooper has a grand total of two assists over the last two years. Does the egg taste good? Every single word that dribbled off your tongue is complete nonsense. Just admit it, you are way over your head in dealing with me. You ran yor mouth off and made a complete boob of yourself, just like that very interesting reference to the Quarterback - another sport you know nothing about! lol. Game, set, match. Endut!


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2919
RE: Some food for thought...
September 09, 2012, 22:39:42

@Aristopraat- in your first sentence following these stats- "So, what can we learn from these stats?"              You are trying to force your own simplistic interpretation of these stats, as if they are actual facts. 

As soon as anyone challenges your weak arguments you resort to the insults of a 10 year old child. 

I admit my knowledge of American Football is limited to knowing the Quarterback is the key decision maker on the field. However I suppose you are also an expert in American Football- and you have the facts to prove it.(some copy and paste from a stats website- with a weak interpretation of these to support your own distorted view of reality.  Ha! ha!

If anything you do provide entertainment value. 


Apollo

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 29
RE: Some food for thought...
September 09, 2012, 22:42:24

Sharkbok,

 

You are probably one of the doffest dose on the planet, if you don't even realise that the site he was referring to uses metres gained as only those metres across the advantage line... Which means your background knowledge (or lack thereof) in terms of the source only serves to indicate you complete lack of knowlede... You are probably a Keo fan...

 

Also do yourself a favour and try to find out which player made the most kicks... You'll be surprised!!!


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 7567
RE: Some food for thought...
September 09, 2012, 22:49:46

Shows how crap those stats are given Goosen made a break the first time he touched the ball


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2919
RE: Some food for thought...
September 09, 2012, 22:54:25

 @Apollo- I assume you are another one of AristoKraats aliases. Requiescat it transpires is AristoKraats alias. 

I have requested the 3rd party site where you have obtained the stats from. I would not be so quick to assume that it is across the advantage line. Otherwise Morne Steyn would sometimes end up with a negative figure of metres gained because he in many games, is so far behind the advantage line it is back to the days of Naas Botha.

Just use one indentity like everyone else, not different ones to look like other people support your viewpoint. You give yourself away by launching straight into insults. 


Apollo

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 29
RE: Some food for thought...
September 10, 2012, 08:43:09

Sharkbok,

 

Thank you for confirming that you are indeed the leader of the Idiocracy...

 

The stats come from optasports riginally and is used by various other companies and sports teams all over the world. A shortened version of these stats can be found on espnscrum.

 

The other site that also supplies stats, also a well known source also have it that Morne was the SA player with the most metres made at 92m (verusco).

 

The fact that you are unaware of this, merely confirms the point I made earlier. An I am therefore allowed to lanch straight into insults due to the fact that you are one of the doffest posters on any rugby site that I have EVER seen...


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: Some food for thought...
September 10, 2012, 08:48:25

Those stats really are heavily in favour of Goosen if you think about it. he wasn't even on the field for 10 minutes..............Reality check....Oh how on earth can you compare....


Apollo

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 29
RE: Some food for thought...
September 10, 2012, 09:13:54

"Those stats really are heavily in favour of Goosen if you think about it. he wasn't even on the field for 10 minutes..............Reality check....Oh how on earth can you compare...."

 

Nog 'n fokken brood....

 

Yes, you are right... How can you compare... The one kick from Goosen was with 4 or 5 minutes left, handing the ball over to Aus... If they did not kick it back, the match would have been over by then... The last run from Goosen also handed the ball (and the match) over to Aus as it was in the last minute...

 

"That's the shit we want, yeah! We wants to can like to be run all the time, ekse!!"

 

Jou fokken idioot... In the last few minutes the Boks run everything out of desperation and YOU want to compare that!!!


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: Some food for thought...
September 10, 2012, 09:22:15

 

  Apollo
 
Status: Orange peeler 
Posts: 13
RE: Some food for thought...
September 10, 2012, 09:13:54

"Those stats really are heavily in favour of Goosen if you think about it. he wasn't even on the field for 10 minutes..............Reality check....Oh how on earth can you compare...."

 

Nog 'n fokken brood....

 

Yes, you are right... How can you compare... The one kick from Goosen was with 4 or 5 minutes left, handing the ball over to Aus... If they did not kick it back, the match would have been over by then... The last run from Goosen also handed the ball (and the match) over to Aus as it was in the last minute...

 


Ai Brood boom... can you not see sarcasm when it stares you in the face, and he calls me a brood ?


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 10253
RE: Some food for thought...
September 10, 2012, 09:23:15

Stats are meaningless unless you compare apples with apples.   Steyn was on the field for 70 minutes and Goosen for ten minutes.   How can you use stats for such a purpose?.   Kicking stats are also meaningless - since it depends largely where the flyhalf gets the ball and kicks.   In his own 22 kicks are always important - but when kicks are made from outside the 22 - it is mostly a waste of balls.

The other issue was raised above repeatedly.   Meters gained in running should not be from the position from where the flyhalf receives the ball - but how many meters were gained over the advantage line.   

A third problem with stats in this case is not how many balls were passed - but really how effective passes were.   Hospital passes should be taken at a minus level.

Problem is that Morne Steyn stands so far back - none of him or the person he passed to ever gets over the advantage line and even if he runs with the ball a few steps - he never gets to the advantage line.   He also kicks away more balls from outside his 22 than any of the other players mentioned.   The other problem is his kicks are too far away for effective follow-up and not strategically sound.

Stats are wonderful things - but should in this case be judged carefully and not be thrown around as proof of anything.   


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: Some food for thought...
September 10, 2012, 09:27:56

Oh mike much better said that i did. Seems some peole need explanations to find the truth.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1390
RE: Some food for thought...
September 10, 2012, 10:28:25

@apollo and requiescat oh wait another stats nerds we have here.....

 

stats alone without taking note where the relevant stats took place in the game and on what part of the pitch it happend just distorts the game and proves pretty much nothing.

 

i agree morne is not just the problem but he is part of the problem. all that one can really take from the copy and paste session is that goosen is much more effective in running the ball in 10 min's than morne is of the whole. it taken into context the boks had more ball.

 

cooper had a wealth of possession

 

people like to use stats to prove there own warped sense of reality so i suggest to the other stats nerds rather use the stats and actually view the game before passing a one eyed judgement


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