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2000 Topic: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 12:15:11

 After watching this weekends game it was easy to notice the difference in intensity from S15 rugby to international. All the "smaller" players who shine in the S15 just lack that physicality needed in Test Rugby. Kankowski is great in S15 but never really shines at international level. Same as Daniel and this is why Kolisi must not be thrown in the mix now.

No matter how we look at it, the Boks were poor at the breakdowns and not for the 1st time this year. The way the Boks play, we need a big pack. We dont have a loose game plan like the Wallabies that we can afford to play mobility over size. We get dominated. At the moment it looks like we need Vermuelen on the field. When Schalk is fit, if he can get back to full fitness, he needs to be in the mix too. To beat the AB's and Aussies, we need to get on top of their forwards. Unfortunately, it doesnt look like Daniels and co are going to pose much threat. The step up in intensity just may be a to great.

Im all for Beeno's power pack about now!!


Bok -Bef$K

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 216
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 12:52:48

Yeah agree. I was backing Daniel but he did not do anything. Maybe a bit unfair to rate him on one game but still we are going to need Kolisi against the Wobblies and AB's


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 13:06:12

 Im not so sure Bok Bef$k. What I might have done is play pick WP Nel (would be Coenie if not for injury. I hope WP is not injured) and then slot Burden in to play as a fetcher. Then I would pick Etzebeth and Bekker with Coetzee, Alberts and Vermuelen at 8. 

Burden, for all he is, can never be doubted for passion and commitment. Of course you would have Strauss warm on the bench in case it turns pear but I back Burden to go all day..He is in incredible shape and is actually the strongest player in the Sharks team weight to strength ratio. His speed too is awesome.

Now I dont say he should be a regular so please dont all say im mad but in the circumstance, I may give it a go and see if it is beneficial. A player like Bizzie is irreplaceable!!!


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11103
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 13:17:10

Not a bad heading there boklogic but pity about the may!!! muncher will be in spasm!!

We need at least Vermuelen back. We also need the physicality and good all round play of JP. Vermulen will take a few matche yet  - probably around four before he starts to shine again. How about Jordaan as reserve 13 and wing?

I still maintain Coenie, Bissie and WP Nel are possibly our best front row but that needs to be proved in tests matches.

I will probably be hooted down but I wonder how Bakkies is playing. If he is really paying well I would think off him starting with Etzebeth on the bench.

I think Deon Fourie has been unlucky not to get the nod ahead of Burden.

What a loss Bissie is. How many injuries can we absorb?

 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2708
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 13:34:31

What has Dooie Duane done this year to warrant a spot in the current squad?


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 14:25:10

muncher in spasm ????? good lord beeno if you want to prove a point please just say so. i never said there was a issue with the pack nor i said we should pick smaller players. i like a fecther yes but daniel has not done any fecthing that i can recall. he adds speed and skills to the mix. he has a different skill set. only and please read beeno if the game pattern suites him. under HM the pattern is slow so the smaller players will have to work double. unless they change it. if the speed of the game is quick and teh intensity is high the likes of daniel coetzee and co stand out. it suites them. play the stand and deliver style then they lose out. hougaard service was very slow so there was not a lot of attack momentum.

 

the type of game pattern you play should reflect in the personal that a coach chooses to play. i will say this again our pack is one of the best and will continue to be so but if they are matched up front then we wont any other weapons to attack them. the big tests are still to come so lets see how your words live beeno after we face the real teams. the pumas are more content in just competing so we can expect to much from them.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 22:48:05

The Boks are not like the Aussies and Kiwi's. We do not play a fast tempo style that they do which is often why the AB's vs Aus matches are more exciting than SA vs NZL.  We play to a structured, often boring tempo but it is effective when executed well. We strangle the life out of the opposition if executed correctly. We did play un upper tempo gameplan at the 2007 world cup under Jake and Eddie and we were the worlds best at it so I do not know why we went away from that to the pre-historic game plan again. We have so many talented players in SA that just wana run with the ball but get coached not to so they become average players.

If we are going to play this kicking game, we need:

9 Pienaar

10 M Steyn

11 Habana

12 F Steyn

13 Fourie

14 Pietersen

15 Lambie

If we want to play a fast tempo game, then I would like to see:

9 Hougaard

10 Lambie

11 Habana

12 F Steyn/De Villiers

13 Jordaan

14 Pietersen

15 Taute/Ludik

It is no use playing guys like Hougaard at 9 if you are playing territory rugby. Cant have exciting players playing a boring game..


radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 23:52:14

I ddont think anyone denys the fact that a "good big pack" will always beat a "good small pack"......Ho ever if that theory is correct then why havent we had the success that should flow from it? We have always produced power packs with forwards that are fast and big and dominating but every stat in the world tells me that this hasn't worked.

 

Our packs dont blow off the AB's and we should in practice do a massive lynch on the Wobblies but we dont. We dont dominate the Super15 franchises like we should, so I am questioning where the advantage is from having a power pack?

 

Are we asking the right questions? One might argue that we have won 2 RWC and 3 times Tri Nations - So something must be working? However as we all know for the talent and power we posses we can strongly argue that we are huge failiures on a consistent basis? 

 

Are our power players over hyped and are we really as good as we say we are? Before anyone states that we are undermanned through injury well the argument is that how can we use this excuse for the other 20 years we have been back on the international scene...do we blame every year also on injury

 

Probably the main issue is this fact and we do need to question strongly what is it that will win us more games on a consistent basis against only one team and that is the 'ALL BLOCKS'.

 

Let's be honest guys if we can devise a game plan and a team to beat the Kiwis and maintain it, then we will no doubt become RWC champs and NO1 IRB ranked team and RC holders year in and year out.

 

There is no other team bar the Wobblies (though their threat is significantly less than the AB's) that posess or consistently stops us from progressing to the mantles and heights we deserve.

 

Sorry guys I know this is a little off the topic. But isnt this all plain and simple? If we have the team and game plan to beat the AB's then we will in theory dominate world rugby?

 

Boklogig said something that is pertinent and that is the fact that SA won the 2007 RWC with expansive up tempo rugby. Though I dont envisage SA to totaly under take this game plan. We must at least look to start implementing this type of attitude into the mind and structures of our players or we will as I have said many times before "keep getting what we are getting" 

 

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8555
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 20, 2012, 23:53:46

It was always a stupid call picking Daniel at 8. Daniel is the perfect impact player and thats where it ends.

Kolisi has been physically dominant all S15, so will be fine at test level. Meyer should be starting with Kolisi at 6, Alberts at 7 and Coetzee at 8

Kolisi, like Bismark and Etzebeth are freakish players that dominate physically


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12019
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 21, 2012, 05:40:44

Saffex

Apparently Kolisis has not impressed Meyer as much as he did for you - because he was sent back to WP and is not accompanying the Springboks on their trip to Argentina.   To my mind he is good - but needs further development.

I agree with you about Keegan Daniel.   Like many others he is impressive on Super 15 level - but cannot make the grade on test level.

For the rest the so-called Beeno power pack is a myth - and i do believe that Bismarck absence will be felt badly.   On saturday the best three players on the Bok side was Bekker, Coetzee and Etzebeth.  Coetzee is a massive player and I would leave him as a flank - or move him to 12 - he is definitely faster than Francois Steyn.:)


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1903
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 21, 2012, 06:30:59

Ha ha Clevermike, I hope you are joking? Why would you wana take a world class flank and make him a really bad centre? Thats all you would be doing to Coetzee. He will get exposed terribly of set piece at 12. Not worth a thought.

Keegan Daniel, Ryan Kankowski, Wynand Olivier, Zane Kirchner, Juan De Jongh...All world class S15 players but just lack what is needed to be world class international players. I was very pro Keegan Daniel and I really wanted him to do well but we gota be realistic for Bok rugby here and unfortunately, he, like Spies, is not the answer. When Spies is good he is damn good but how many quiet games does he have to have in between. Vermuelen is rarely ever bad. He will always give you a solid 7 out of 10 on his "off" days...Schalk too. Some people are quick to bring Schalk down when he hasn't performed to their standards but thats just because we are so used to him changing the game in our favour and getting 9 or 10 out of 10 that when he doesn't, people call for his head and in reality, he had a 6 or 7 out of 10 game...

Those are the kinds of special players we need. Juan Smith I take it is history and he is a bigger loss than Bismarck, but hey, people get old. You gota expect and plan for that.

 

We can dominate world rugby. We can and we would have until that "awesome" day in 2007 when some fool decided to march Jake White. He was getting the mix between back and forward play so precise that we were hurting teams. Eddie Jones was a master too. I have little doubt that we would have played NZL in the Semi Finals at the 2011 WC under them and probably have beaten that overrated Kiwi team.

What we need is Jake back or someone that sees rugby like he does. He was bringing Springbok rugby back from the dead.

We have the players now, that is for sure but no vision from management and coaches. What I dont understand is why would you start a new year with last year's tactics that didnt work? Crazy I tell you. All these coaches are too scared to branch out because in SA, you do poorly, you get fired, you do excellent you get fired, you do average and you get a bit longer before you get fired. Its a circus there. I would rather be fired and remembered like Jake White than coaches before him thats for sure.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12019
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 21, 2012, 07:01:52

boklogic

I hope you saw the snile behind that sentence about Coetzee - I was not serious and wanted to take the mickey out of some rather dumb comments recently posted on this site about Marcell Coetzee being a center.   No - Cetzee is nowadays one of the best-performing flanks in the world - and he should stay where he is.

I would play Vermeulen at 8 - rather than Spies = or rather his alter-ego Jane.   I would also leave Alberts and Coetzee as flank forwards.   However, I remain with my comments about the so-called Bok power plan it is a myth.

  

 


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11103
RE: Bok pack..Beeno may be right!
August 23, 2012, 17:02:13

Mike please try and be rational. Tell me what is wrong with my power pack of:

Coenie, Bissie, WP Nel, Etzebeth, Bekker, Schalk, Vermuelen and Alberts?  A 940 kg power pack.

Now lets hear your reason why this pack would not put the abs on the back foot. We do obviously need decent backs and other things but why would this pack not get the better of the abs?

 

 

 


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