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1950 Topic: English looking towards future of their game
radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
English looking towards future of their game
August 15, 2012, 01:28:58

Hi guys found this interesting article on a NZ website - Looks like the Poms are doing somethiing about moving forward and maybe away from their 10 man rugby style...who knows?

English rugby eyes NZ 'global dominance'

The All Blacks' "iconic history" is in the sights of a British sporting guru recruited to conduct a review of English rugby.

 


 

The architect of Great Britain's Olympic success is confident he can help England's rugby team mount a sustained challenge to New Zealand's global dominance.

Peter Keen, the former performance director of UK Sport, has been recruited by the Rugby Football Union to review England's elite structure.

Keen developed the high performance system at UK Sport that led to Britain winning 19 gold medals at the Beijing Olympics and a remarkable 29 in London.

The RFU will hope Keen can have a similar impact on English rugby, not just in the immediate build-up to the 2015 World Cup on home soil but beyond.

"I have been asked by an organisation who want to win to come in and see how it can be improved," Keen said.

"The brief is: how are we going to win?

"They have in their world the unbelievable, iconic history of the All Blacks.

"In New Zealand's world it is possible to win 82 per cent of Test matches and that is what you are aiming for. Bring it on."

Keen believes vehemently that the right structures, management and commitment to supporting athletes can virtually guarantee success on the pitch.

His motto, borrowed from the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, is "Lead To Serve".

Keen and Sir Ian McGeechan will focus on the playing side of the RFU's professional rugby department, managed by Rob Andrew, which oversees the age-group and junior England teams.

The review will look at management structures and whether both the system and the people running it are maximising the talent available.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3446
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 15, 2012, 03:20:28

To be honest this sounds like typical over inflated Pommies talking themselves up. It is the nation with the least humility in the world- that is why everyone supports who ever plays against England. 

Ok they got some gold olympics, and a good achievement for the British and foreigners reprenting them like cricket, rugby etc. (The united Kingdom has close to 100 million people- it is a small place but extremely densely populated).

When ever a new coach/manager gets a new sports job the brief is "how are we going to be the best".

The new coach, management, captain and players then proceeds to talk themselves up in the press on how they are going to be the world beater again. The Newspapers then publish them as favourites for any tournament entered. Sometime later everyone is fired and the whole cycle starts again. (Achieving the best was a failure)

Very unlikeable sportsmen really, and I enjoy a victory over England- rather a thrashing over England more than any other team. Except for the All Blacks which is then it is an honour, with England it is just putting some over talking big mouths in their place.

What type of team calles their team the" english rugby elite squad!- So pompous- exageration

 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12017
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 15, 2012, 11:02:57

There is one issue here that bothers me a bit - and that is Olymic achievements.   Throughout history home groiund advantage counts a lot in winning gold medals.   This was in Olympic Games in 2000 (Sidney), 2008 (Pecking) and now in London.   In 2000 Australia won 17 gold medals (although 2 had to be returned because of positive drug testing) in 2008 China won most gold medals and now in London the British team pushed up their medals from 19 to 29.   Austrlia this year won 7 golds and China dropped back to second on the medal list.   What is noticeable in the case of the English Olympic squad is that whilst there was definite improvement in some codes of sport - there was a definite decline in others.   Take for instance swimming - where they won a number of gold medals in Peking - but none in London.   The deduction from that is overall they did well as a result of the coaching scenario - but there are cases where they in fact dropped back.

There are a number of factors resulting in that kind of performance improvement - part of it is based on coaching - but the major component relates to availability of sportsmen.  Britain did well in the Olympics - but they have another problem in rugby.   They do not play rugby on a unified basis and they have in fact four Unions in the game - namely England, Scotland. Wales and Ireland (which include also Northern Ireland).   That means splitting of the available players into four different competing teams - reducing the talent pool.

The other tendency is to get players and athletes in from other countries - that is particularly the case in rugby and cricket - but was also noticeable in the Olympics - a number of winners of gold medals moved to Britain and accepted British citizenship.   The problem with that scenario is that the local talent pool is detrimentally affected, making the country as a whole less competitive than they should be.

Take the case of cricket as an example - they somehow managed to get on top of the world rankings - but are they going to stay there?   I believe one of the reasons for them topping the ranking relates to the massive decrease in Australian competitiveness.   I believe the present English cricket team is beatable - but they also have a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot - like happened  in the case of Pietersen.  A week ago he was the hero of the English media and the main reason the team managed a draw - now he is widely accused in the media of treason.   Will that type of issue help the English team - I believe not.

On the whole - yes there are scope for improvement in English Rugby - but I cannot see that materializing within the present scenario - even with the help of efficient management.   Rugby and cricket are really minority sports in the UK - and that is unlikely to change over the next three years.   The majority sport is soccer - but they are really hopeless in that sport and not improving at all.  

I believe that the POMS can shout and scream about rugby - but is the noise really going to be of any effect?

 

 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2707
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 15, 2012, 11:31:26

Sharkbok

Status: Squad member
Posts: 299
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 15, 2012, 03:20:28


To be honest this sounds like typical over inflated Pommies talking themselves up. It is the nation with the least humility in the world- that is why everyone supports who ever plays against England. 

Ok they got some gold olympics, and a good achievement for the British and foreigners reprenting them like cricket, rugby etc. (The united Kingdom has close to 100 million people- it is a small place but extremely densely populated).

When ever a new coach/manager gets a new sports job the brief is "how are we going to be the best".

The new coach, management, captain and players then proceeds to talk themselves up in the press on how they are going to be the world beater again. The Newspapers then publish them as favourites for any tournament entered. Sometime later everyone is fired and the whole cycle starts again. (Achieving the best was a failure)

Very unlikeable sportsmen really, and I enjoy a victory over England- rather a thrashing over England more than any other team. Except for the All Blacks which is then it is an honour, with England it is just putting some over talking big mouths in their place.

What type of team calles their team the" english rugby elite squad!- So pompous- exageration

 

 

We have to be careful not to get tagged as being overflated ourselves here. We are the last to point a single finger as far as Olympic achievements are concerned. We are not too far off when it comes to least humility ourselves. We are quite a whinging blaming lot ourselves. It is always because the ref was against us or the quota system or the isolation or anything but ourselves. If that is humility, then I don't know.

 

You have a few mistakes in your post. You are clearly confused between the British and the English. The Olympics was presented by the UK, and not England. The UK population is nowhere close to 100m. Yes, it is densly populated, but what has that got to do with the issue?

What is wrong with: "How are we going to ne the best................?". In fact, if that is not the brief to any coach, be that a new coach or not, then there is something seriously wrong. What was the general vibe just before and shortly after Heyneke Meyer was appointed? What was and still is, the vibe when Gary Kirsten was appointed?

 

So what if the call it a rugby elite squad? We have had many elite squads, and what have they achieved? We have a had high performance cricket set-up for many years, and we have been the no 1 test side for a brief period, and now have the opportunity to be be no 1 again. That is what we achieved in all these years of the high performance squad/centre. What we have managed pretty damn well was to choke every time when it mattered.

SA Rugby launches Elite Squad project

Tuesday, 13 February 2007
 
 
 

 


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 15, 2012, 11:46:10

 ouch!


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 15, 2012, 12:35:15

fair comment...its one thing saying you want to be the best. its another thing going out and actually doing it. england's biggest problem is there game pattern. big heavy gym rats and the skills are not developed. they have the biggest amount of registerd rugby players in the world so there is no depth problem. they are doged by conservative thinking and a lot of issues beyond rugby. i dont think they will be there. wales on the other hand looks like there building a great team there

 

i agree with shark bok. it just looks l ike another mindless pommie propaganda.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3446
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 16, 2012, 04:07:06

 Ceradyne, you make many valid points- What is wrong with: "How are we going to ne the best................?"

However if you have ever lived in England, I think your perspective may be different. The Olympics was held in London- the capital of England. It was a British event, but managed by the English media, not the Scottish or Welsh media. 

It sounds like the job description is just about ego - rather than tangibale realistic plans

When you see the players and media talk themselves to over inflate their own egos and enjoy the time before the next tournament, I cant imagine any other country could be less humble. That is why most countries support who ever plays against England. Look at the English rugby team at the World cup in New Zealand- they allmost got thrown out of a hotel for having no respect to the staff. During the Football worldcup in South Africa they talked themselves up as favourites- and offended their opposition by talking them down. Some of these really small countries even voiced their concerns in the media- before getting draws with England. It sounds like the job description is just about ego - rather than tangibale realistic plans


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2707
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 16, 2012, 18:31:37

Sharkbok, I am in England.


garethedwards

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 240
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 16, 2012, 18:42:56

I am in London myself and there is a lot of positive stuff happening throughout the rugby scene.

They are focussed on 3 formats Union, League and Sevens here. And able to support all 3, not only in terms of finance but with big enough player base to make tournaments viable and a positive breeding ground.

 

They will place themselves unquestionably at the top of NH this year and if they carry on in this vein, I am certain they will knocking on SH door by as early as next year.  

  


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2707
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 16, 2012, 19:55:52

My feeling as well Gareth. I am a London Irish supporter and despite their terrible 2011/2 season they are working hard on the new season. They are doing well in the JP Morgan 7's as well, and the new coaches are getting on with the job. Season tickets are apparently flying at £240 each.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11103
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 17, 2012, 09:09:10

Quite frankly good luck to England for wanting to improve.

Here in SA we are hamstrung by poor managment, quotas, a refusal to make merit the only criteria and generally a lack of real professionalism.

We go go off into raptures if we win a medal and think we are great. 

Would that we would be striving with all we have to get the best out of the abundnt rugby talent we have. We should be blowing these hapless kiwis away.

As for ou windpomp what he always fails to undertand is that we need to deal with things holistically. Yes windpomp  we must address our own shortcomings but we must also ensure that guys like your  hero Bryce  Lawrence do not get a chance to shaft us. Its no use saying when we lose a game by a point or two but are robbed of 20 points or more by a complete twit of a ref that it is the players fault etc. The payers have done more than enough to win comfortably so if anything the emphasie has to be on the major problem - the ref.

Also quotas have bedevilled us on more than one occassion  -  no other side in world rugby has to put up with this rubbish. It is not an excuse its a fact - another distinction folk seem to grapple with. We need to fight this with all we have.

So windpomp please get some balance on these issues.

 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 2707
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 17, 2012, 11:07:07

Ou Beenbal, you have just helped me prove my point. Thank you.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11103
RE: English looking towards future of their game
August 17, 2012, 11:48:47

windpomp its always nice to be of use but please could you get some real perspective. Hahahahhaha


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