The Ruckers Forum

Forum » Rugby » Springboks » If you were BOK coach....
Login to reply
 
 
 
1922 Topic: If you were BOK coach....
Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1968
If you were BOK coach....
August 11, 2012, 13:14:00

 If you were sole selector and coach of the Boks and you could select and coach as you wish with no politics involved and your first test as coach was against the AB's, what would you like to see more of from the boks, less of and who would be your match day 22 if you had a fully fit compliment of players to choose from to execute your gameplan?

By fully fit I mean all the Schalk Burgers and Juan Smith's of the world were all fit to play.

I am just interested to see how everyones opinions would differ.


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3700
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 11, 2012, 16:51:57

 no bulls would make the starting xv, and only Bulls chosen on merit would make the bench.

Ruan Piennar at scrumhalf. Pat Lambie at Flyhalf, 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5836
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 11, 2012, 20:20:43

@boklogic,

cir[removed]stances would have to be taken into consideration as well, cos IMO meyer wasted the opportunity with the england test series to begin the cycle to break the mindset of the  pro 10 man rugby game which has long been associated with the Boks.
so my Boks team would have more expansive style, very similar to the sharks and cheetahs game,while employing a defence mindet that made the stormers a force in recent years, but more importantly, i would of had it tested against england and the pumas and then of cource the All Blacks.

be that as it amy, here is my Bok team from all of SA fully fit players,,,

1 c oosthuizen, 2 b du plesiss, 3 wp nel, 4 e ezebeth, 5 a bekker, 6 m coetzee, 7 s burger(c), 8 w alberts, 9 f hougaard, 10 j goosen, 11 b habana, 12 f steyn, 13 jp pieterson, 14 j taute, 15 p lambie
16 a strauss, 17 j du plesiss, 18 j kruger, 19 d fourie, 20 r pienaar, 21 e janties 22 englebrecht

 

gossen would of had 5 test caps under his belt by the time he played the All Blacks, so he will be well versed with the plan i would be trying to install within the Boks.
goosen is class all the way and IMO if injury hadnt of come his way, he would  of had a test cap by the end of the year.

i am one of those who sees jp pieterson as a future long term 13 for the Boks and IMO its only a matter of time before it becomes a reality, considering the lack of quality depth in this area.

taute and englebrecht have a lot of talent, but the form of others will see them have to bide their time untill they become in[removed]bents. taute to start on the wing, i think he has perfect speed and fottwork, but his ability under the high ball and play full back at a high level, seems him start ahead of engleberecht, but both have promising futures ahead of them and being young and not completely reformed to the Boks old way would make it easier for me to mould them into the players i would want.

i know janties has a lot of detractors (especially from my bro mike), but i do rate janties, or at least did before that injury in the early rounds of spXV. i thought he played amazingly for the ;lions during their currie cup campagn and that formed continued into 2012 spXV, but then he got injured and playing behind a sad lions pack, he has struggled ever since.

IMO with the Bok forward pack i picked, he would have his chance to shine with any opportunity he gets. of course, he would only see game time if goosen was injured, or if the game was in the bag, other wise goosen would be playing 80mins all the time.

i would start hougaard over pienaar, again because his style is exactly what im after. its amazing how kiwis rate hougaard very very highly, way more then u saffa lot. his ability to attack and create opportunities out of nothing is something i would look to enhance during training, whil also improving the halfback fundamentals of his game.

i started the cheetahs props, cos they have impressed me with their all round game. their ability to go forward with ball in hand would work wonders with the rest of the ball carriers i have and i still have jannie an experienced head on the bench. his relegation to the bench would also see jannie pull finger and he will make the most of his opportunity to make a statement when subbed on.

deon fourie is the most inspirational player from SA the last half of the season. a utility factor which sees him cover both hooker and the loose forward. if strauss hadnt of had such a good season himselaf and wasnt such an asset as a leader, i would have picked deon fourie as the reserve hooker, as it is, i would have no problem with the stormers super star making my team.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12953
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 11, 2012, 23:48:13

Thee are many factors to be taken into account in dealing with selection and the main one centers around the game plan.   However - if I have to select a team on form I would have serious reservations about certain positions in particular.   The main head ache areas are in respect of -

  *   The full back

 *    One of the wings

 *    No 13

 *    The flyhalf

KIrchner is a no-no at full back - but the only alternative at this stage is Lambie - who has had problems in that position recently - probably because of injury problems that affected his form.   I think that Taute can also be utilized as full back and that is where I believe he should play.

I would never move JP Pietersen to 13.   He has not adjusted to that position - he is not a playmaker - but a finisher.  Better at wing by all accounts.  We need another wing and in that regard I would picj a real speedster,   There are a number of candidates and my first choice would be Mvovo.    No Habana because of the age factor.

No 13  - The potential player I rate highest for that position is Jordaan - extremelt speedy and a clever ball player that constantly cause problems for the opposition.   He was outstanding for the Juniors and when he retiurned from injury caused major problems for the Reds.   He was also way above the rest of his teammates in the game against the Chiefs.  

Flyhalf - this is where the game plan is to be considered.   I have not seen a SA flyhalf with the natural avilities and player instincts like Goosen.   He remains my top choice for that position.

I have a minor problem with Hougaard - but that could be corrected with positive coaching.  He should realize that the first requirement of a scrummie is to pass balls effectively and only in exceptional cases to kick a ball away the need for variation is paramunt in that case.

Based on the above - my selection would be the following:-

15   -    Taute

14  -     Pietersen 

13   -    Jordaan

12  -     Steyn

11  -     Mvovu

10  -     Goosen

  9   -    Hougaard

  8   -    Vermeulen

  7  -     Alberts

  6  -     Coetzee

  5  -     Bekker

  4  -    Etzebeth

  3   -   Nel

  2   -   Bismarck

  1  -    Oosthuizen

Insofar as the props are concerned - I believe that Jannie and the Beast are getting near to their "sell-by" dates;

Bench   :   Strauss,  Kitshoff, Du Toit (needs a bit more experience - but he will be tops in another years time), Alberts, Pienaar, Engelbrecht and Lambie.

I have seen enough of Du Toit and Jordaan to have the utmost confidence in them.   Another potential player for the bench - with all the promise in the world is Serfontein.   The Bulls are killing the development of this youngster - and he should move to the Cheetahs or the Stormers - boy-o-boy do they desperately need good backline players to stop the rot in that franchise.   

Juam Smith is past tense and Burger is extremely questionable and in my opinion unlikely to play competitive rugby again.

The first player who started to kick balls away aimlessly and not be part of a comprehensive game plan - will be dropped from my tream like a hot potato. 


Denny

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1735
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 02:03:36

A very good question......now if I were to be Bok coach the first thing I'd do is to choose the style of rugby I'd want to play, once decided I'd pick the players who would fit that style.

One thing I would never attempt is to model the Bok style of play on the AB's or the previously great Wallaby style of play, to try and ditto their styles wold be a total disaster. Part of my style would be to ban senseless kicking, defensive kicking would be allowed but only in the red zone.

I would try to employ a backline coach from outside of South Africa as clearly there is no-one in the country who knows anything about backline play. Preferably an Ozzie not a Kiwi whose job would be to put intelligence into our backline play.

Very importantly the team would be blended with youth and experience to take us through to the next WC. Past reputation would count for zero if the player failed to perform without any consistency.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1968
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 04:10:52

 First things first. None of this bullsh!t about wrapping players in cotton wool and "saving" them for finals we may never make. The best team plays every week. I would have a squad of around 26 and those players will make up the match day 22 each week. It does not matter who the opposition. No completely second string teams travelling to Australasia. Just ovious rests for players with niggles or who are not 100%. 

My match day 22 I would like to see:

1. Tendai Mtwararira 2. Bismarck Du Plessis 3. WP Nel 4. Eben Etzebeth 5. Andries Bekker 6. Marcel Coetzee 7. Juan Smith 8. Willem Alberts 9. Piet Van Zyl 10. Patrick Lambie 11. Lwazi Mvovo 12. Frans Steyn 13. Jacque Fourie 14. JP Pietersen 15. Louis Ludik

16. Adriaan Strauss 17. Coenie Oosthuizen 18. Steven Sykes 19. Heinrich Brussouw 20. Duane Vermuelen 21. Francois Hougaard 22. Johan Goosen

The four non playing members would be Keegan Daniel, Jannie Du Plessis, Jean De Villiers, Paul Jordaan.

Some may say it would make more sense to play Goosen at 10 with Van Zyl at 9 because of the great partnership they have formed but Lambie is a genius on his day. He will get that form back. He plays so close to the advantage line and has the physicality needed at 10. Great defender too.

Louis Ludik is a busy player who loves to attack and will tackle anything that moves. Great positional play and solid under the high ball. He does all the basics well and I think he has been an unsung hero for both the Lions and Sharks. he was a huge player for the Sharks this year.

With this group of players, they are all good enough to play more than 1 position with great success but are all specialists in the position I have them too. We will start with a heavy, strong pack with Bismark playing a fetchers roleon defence (he has done that all year for Sharks with plenty success) but if things go pear at break down, Brussouw is available. It could easily be a complete Sharks backline from 10 to 15 with Jordaan at 13 but I reckon Jacque Fourie still has plenty to offer and is a good player. Jordaan will certainly keep the heat on him though.

I would spend a lot of money on a backline coach. Probably someone in the Eddie Jones mould or David Campese. He re-invented the Sharks back play and brought back the Sharks play of old that went missing for around 10 years just before year 2000...With Lambie playing 10 and two big, strike centres that run beautiful lines and two of the best finishers in world rugby on the wings, we can terrorise any backline. Bjorn Basson is a great finisher but Mvovo is a better all round player. Piet Van Zyl has a big future in Bok colours and I think he is our most exciting number 9 at the moment. He has a good balance between passing and making a break. Hougaard can learn a bit from him!


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12953
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 10:00:00

Boklogic

I agree to a very large extent to what you wrote.   However, Juan Smith has played no rugby this year and as he is alreadt 33 years old - is unklikely to return to competitive rugby.   Jaques Fourie has a two year multi-million dollar contract in japan and is contractually bound not to play other rugby outside of his contract.   he will not play competitively again in SA before 2014 and by then he would be 33 years of age - way past his "sell-by" date.

I understand that Juan Smith is not really interested in rugby anymore - he is farming.

For the rest I agree with you about your squad. However, in the place of Smith I would put in Du Toit and in the place of Fourie - a good hard look at some of the Junior Boks are called for.  


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9309
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 11:26:45

If everyone was fit my 22 would be:

15. Lambie 14. JP 13. Taute 12. Frans 11. JJ.Engelbrecht 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Jannie 4. Etzebeth 5. Bekker 6. Brussouw 7. Elstadt 8. Coetzee 16. Pienaar 17. Jordaan 18. Mvovo 19. Coenie 20. Strauss 21. Steph du Toit 22. Kolisi

A side with enough experience in Lambie, JP, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Jannie, Bekker and Brussouw and the best of our youngsters.

Forget hasbeens like Habana, Jean, Morne, Schalk and Spies - its time to move on

 

 


SS-Mole

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 59
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 20:30:20

 A girl you team is missing Vermueland and Shalk burger, otherwise it is ok.

Other changes should be - Engelbrecht and Taute have also not done enough to justify making the team. No way that Elstadt is better than Burger or Vermuelen. Brussouw now works as a barman fetching beer as he has not been effective on the field for some time. Steph du Toit is not ready yet. 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9309
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 21:39:28

 Beenkop, what the hell do you know?

What on earth has Vermeulen done to justify selection ahead of Kolisi and Elstadt......sweet stuff all.

As for Schalk, no thanks - there are 8 better loosie options out there - Schalk is history.

Taute and JJ have done more than enough.......let me guess you would have old man Jean at 13 and passed his best Habana on the wing........good old conservative selections which go along with your stupidity


kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 533
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 21:53:33

 I really like the names being put forward. I'm goin to go for a slightly green side but I feel that these players have really proven themselves this season in the Super 15 and that they can beat any team. I would like to see our halfback that can attack from set pieces and have the ball skills to take the space and have the ability to offload in the tackle. I would also look for a back three that is not afraid to counter attack and none of this arial ping pong rubbish that has plagued SA rugby for so many years. Each kick should have a purpose and I would rather get the players to fall back and support the player catching the ball. 

My team would be

1 Beast
2 Bismark
3 Coenie (Positional swtich but he has proven that he can play both sides)
4 Estebeth
5 Bekker
6 Coetzee (Great Ball Carier similar in the David Po[removed] mould)
7 Kolisi (He has been playing at 6 all season but his best position is 7, fantastic ball carrier)
8 Alberts (The human wrecking ball, would have Vermeulen on the bench and rotate the players through the season)
9 Hougaard (I have been really dissapointed by him this season but I believe if you play to his strengths he can be amazing)
10 Goosen (Only player that comes close to Cruden)
11 Habana (I believe with the right game plan he can still ad a lot of value)
12 Frans Steyn
13 Jordaan (The kid has incredible ball skills and plays great supporting lines)
14 JP Pietersen
15 Taute (In the right team he will flourish and with the likes of JP and Habana he should do really well)

16 Strauss
17 Jannie
18 Pieter Steph Du Toit
19 Vermeulen
20 Pienaar
21 Lambie
22 Jean De Villiers


 

 


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1968
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 22:48:36

My reasons for selecting Juan Smith and Jacque Fourie is due to what these guys can add in terms of experience and what the others can learn from them. I believe Jacque has been the best 13 the Boks have had in a number of years and rarely ever has a bad game. I believe with him around, Jordaan and especially JP can become world class outside centres. JP has the same physical attributes and can learn a lot from Jacque. Thats why I have experience with youth. Juan Smith, the best player I believe for the Springboks for many years now. He can teach Jacques Potgieter and Marcell Coetzee a lot. Slowly bring those guys in whilst fading the others out. Dont wana rush a guy like Jordaan or Potgieter in to it too quick. The minute they realise its much harder, they try too hard instead of play their natural game and they never get that confidence back. I mean, Marcell is a natural but look at Jacques Potgieter. He was jumping around like a headless chicken against the English. He was trying to make a statement by tackling everything that moves and trying to make them all monster hits and it just was not working for him. Thats why he was subbed so early. Someone needed to tell him to relax. Look what old Os Du Randt did for the Boks on his come back.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9309
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 12, 2012, 23:44:49

 No Boklogic, Fourie and Juan Smith would be poor selections and a backwards step. We need to move forward and invest in the young talent we have unearthed


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8742
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 00:41:57

I have never read more rubbish in my life than on this thread. Not one poster chooses our best centre. Instead we have mopes like Taute, JJ, Mvovo, Kolisi, Stephan du Toit, Elster, Ludik, 

 

Ordinary s15 players don't suddenly become test heroes.

 

SA fans have never grasped the huge difference between our first test team and the rest.....in spite of the fact that our B team always gets killed.....even by Pom provincial teams.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12953
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 02:08:01

Mozart

I am not a great supporter of Dave's selections.   I tend to agree with you about some of the players that is suddenly been punted.   I have not seen anything special of either Taute or Engelbrecht - both are pretty ordinary on Super 15 level.   The one guy that stood out as far as I am concerned is Jordaan.   He gets better every game he plays in - yesterday he outsprinted Aplon over 55 meters to score a try - that shows great speed as well.   I would have him in the team all the time - he picks himself.

As for Taute - I put him in at full back.   He is good in that position and was outsanding last year when he played Super 15 as full back.   At center he is not a good bet - he is not a playmaker - he is a better finisher and finishers should be at wing or at full back.   Same applies to Engelbrecht.   If he ever plays for the Springboks he will be played at wing.   I would rather have Lambie on the bench to cover for both full back and flyhalf.   Anyway as a full back Taute is ten times the player Kirchner would ever be.   I have to add to this - the reason why Pietersen is not selectable at 13 is exactly the same - he is NOT a plymaker he is a finisher.

In the case of Du Toit - I am an admirer of this guy - he is going to be one of the Springbok greats in years to come.    I would like to see him in the CC and next year in Super 15 - before he shoiuld actually be selected.   However, that he would make it is to my mind beyond a shadow of doubt. 

Kolis was a big disappointment in th semi final of Super 15 and he will not make the Springboks soon.   If he does he could be a one-match player as I do not believe he is ready yet.   Elstadt is definitely not ready - but he is a good player that can develop.    

I admire Dave's belief in the youngsters - but doubt whether most are ready yet or even capable of playing on higher level..   Taute is the most likely one to succeed - but I do not think at center.   Engelbrecht has one advantage - he has a Blue Bulls contract and could come into consideration - but I also have my doubts about him as a player on international level.. 

 


JeromeV

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 257
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 04:35:23

Hey mike, most of the time its the fly half and inside centre doing the playmaking from what i see. Players don't have to necessary be a playmaker to play outside centre. I have seen many wingers making the transition to play outside centre, it does work if the defensive structure is right. Now look at Ma'a Nonu he has been succsessful at 13, but hes not a playmaker, So there is no reason why JP can't play outside centre.


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1968
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 05:30:15

Mozart, who is our best centre? What is your match 22?


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 10:37:08

if i was the bok coach a lot of things would have changed


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3270
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 10:42:47

So Carpet, why aren't you the Bok coach?


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8742
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 12:41:59

Fransie, JP, Jordaan, Jean, Habana, Lambie, Hougaard

 

Beast, Bismarck, Jannie,  Brussouw,  Etzebeth, Bekker, Marcel, Alberts

 

My  concerns here would be place kicking, grunt among the loosies and Hougaard at scrummie.

 

 So my bench would be Pienaar, Aplon,  Morne, Adriaan Strauss, CJ Kankowski and 


mozart

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8742
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 12:44:32

Of all the dumb ideas on this thread....Steph du Toit rushed into test rugby, when he was so out of his depth in S15, is the dumbest. My bench lock for now would be Juandre Kruger, who wasn't dominant, but competent against the Poms. 

 

I'd be looking at Goosen for the future, also Serfontein, du Toit, and Kitshoff......but only for bench stats and no sooner than next year.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 13:32:02

@cerdyne well why arent you the coach then ???? asking rhetoric questions is easy is it not ???


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11993
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 13:32:02

Given the criteria, we are playing the abs  and all players are fit and on form:

Coenie, Bismark, WP Nel (Coenie covers tighthead)

Etzebeth, Bekker

Schalk, Vermulen, Alberts
Nice 940 kg pack that is mobile and drives the ball up well. Some real hard men to soften up the kiwis. They cant match this sort of pack.
 
Hougaard, Goosen 9 (A bit of a risk this I admit)
JP, Habana, Frans (At 15 but not cast in stone - may get him back to 12 and play Lambie or Taute at 15))
Jean, Jordaan I am not ready t odrop Jean just yet  -otherwise is Frans at 12 and Jean at 13 with Taute/ Lambie at 15)
Reserves
Beast (Very good over a shorter period). Strauss, Elstadt (Covers lock and 7), Coetzee
Vermaak, Morne (In case its too much to soon with Goosen) and Lambie (Utlility back) Morne could b eswopped with Taute but I am looking to se if Morne after some rest looks better.
 
If one is honest there are a few combinations to try out and a few marginal calls. Also is the speed with which the Jan Serfonteins of the game impose themselves. Jan looks to be a player who could mature early. Steph Du Toit needs a season or two etc.
Loubscher thinks Morne is raring to go. We shall see, snapser thinks the 2011 SA player of the year is history -well only if injury has finished Burger off but age wise he is still okay. Folk have forgotten how well he played. How is Jaque Fourie doing. I wont pick him though as easy rugby in Japan will not have done him any good.
Snapster if you think Kolisi is in the same league as Vermuelen you are dafter than a hatter.eyer rates vermuelen very highly an drightly so.   Moz has it spot on when he says Kolisi should not hav been picked yet and neither should Kitshoff etc. 
 
Of the teams picked, apart from my own, I like Mike's the best. If Burger doesnt come back its Coetzee and we then have selected identical packs. I have no great problem with Mike's backline but I feel Habana and Jean are not quite done. I prefer a bigger wing like JJ to mvovo. I do not think Mvovo is going to quite cut it at international level. Rhule who played well for the Cheetahs is looking the deal. So JJ and Rhule maybe the future. Time will tell
 
Lots for Meyer to sift through.
 

 


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3270
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 13:48:42

Carpetmuncher, I am not the one who knows better than the coach.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 14:03:02

i must admit i like the names being thrown around here...but i generally feel the team wont be a big a change from the ones we saw in the previous games againts the poms but i do feel with the level of talent going around meyer needs to experiment more with the players we do have with the agenda to build a team towards rwc 2015 with the relevant depth and skills and experience.

 

much as been said about meyes tactics but we have the quality in players to play and to beat many a side so i would rather tend to pick the younger stars now and groom them with the more senior players to enable skills transfer. its a tough situation because one does not wont a complete youngster side going at it against the likes of AB and the wallies. it might cause more harm than good.

 

in regards to burger if one looks at what he has to offer as a player he can only make the side due to his exp and not due to player form. as a ball carrier i doubt he can lift the likes of alberts and vermeulen and as a fetcher he was great in 2004 but since his neck injury has focused more on his running game. skilll wise he is great but the level of players at the moment is really scarry. to be honest its a great situation to be in if one is the coach. its just about getting that balance right for the lose fowards. that being said i will start burger ahead of spies. i will move spies back to the wing and on to the bench. but that is just me i like my backline to be the primary weapon.

 

the backs well its a bit of a situation seeing that there is no real 15's sticking there hands up for selection. so zane got lucky just hope for his sake he can prove everyone wrong. that being said as well i do feel lambie does offer more but meyer is hell bend on his blue boks so we have to wait and see.

 

mvovo had a great season at the sharks and deserves his place. the zulu express played well and he deserves his place. has amazing speed and just needs to be in open space to be lethal. if morne donkey steyn can attack the gain line and give more width on his attack mvovo might receive more space and can be a feature. with franna at 12 he chances of getting more space and the ball quicker will be much more. just hope franna can generate some nice width and speed to his passing. depends how meyer want to play the game. i do think meyer will use franna as a bathering ram which is a massive waste of his skills.

 

@ beeno nice team but i feel i will maybe include a smaller fetcher as a loose forward so there is where either schalk of vermeulen loses out. brussow or kollisi would be able to complement the other ball carriers not to be get to involved with the donkey work of cleaning rucks or defending..

there is not way in hell i would move franna to 15....he wont be able to dictate play as much from the back so to either think such a move is daft. jean's days at 12 is finished.

my team will be

1  Beast

2 Bismark

3 jannie

4 Estebeth

5 Bekker

6 Coetzee/until brussow is ready. i am sticking to my fetcher role. securing rucks is paramount to ball possession and setting up phase play and great defensive tool to slow down other teams ball 

7 coetzee

8 Alberts

9 Hougaard

10 Goosen

11 Habana

12 Frans Steyn

13 Jordaan

14 JP Pietersen if fit other wise mvovo

15 Taute might be a big call to make seeing that there is no real 15's sticking there hand up. does offer a lot on attack and defence. not a robotic kick the ball back because i love to play aerial pingpong player. he does actually play the situation which to me is a great asset. 

16 Strauss
17 coenie

18 elstadt

19 Vermeulen
20 Pienaar
21 Lambie
22 Jean De Villiers

loads of goal kicking options so i dont buy that we need the likes of morne steyn. steyn to be in the group just to mentor goosen into the role maybe but that is it really.

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 14:04:55

@ceradyne well neither have is said it so i dont understand your post then ????

the post reads if you were the bok coach.....its meant hypothetically not literally...just sayin


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3270
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 14:21:50

http://www.surfing-waves.com/surfing_lesson_three.htm

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 14:33:48

punting your business here arent we :P hahahaha


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3270
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 15:27:27

Nope. I cannot even swim. Let alone duck and dive.....................


garethedwards

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 240
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 16:18:05

If you were BOK coach.... I'd fire the kicking, backline and defensive coaches and hire people who are suited to the job. Then I would pick players based on merit.

 
Simple enough, but in practice it would never happen ;)


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 08:08:44

Immediate team, everyone fit. Not to say will be my team in 6  months time.

15. Taute

14. JP

13. Jean (C)

12. Frans

11. Habana

10. Goosen

9. Pienaar 

8. Vermeulen (VC)

7. Alberts

6. Coetzee/Kolisi

5. Bekker

4. Eben

3. Coenie

2. Bismark

1. Beast

16. Jannie

17. A Strauss

18. J. Kruger

19. Coetzee/Kolisi

20. Hougaard

21. Lambie

22. Jordaan 


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12953
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 09:05:28

I am not at all surprised by the frequent mentioning of Jordaan as a Springbok - am a great admirer of him and has been for a while.   This guiy has all the attributes to be a great player like Mannetjies Roux was many years ago and Conrad Smith is at present.   He is a speedster with par excellent ball sense.

However, I am very worried about one aspect and that is the constant ham string problem he is experiencing at this stage.   He injured his hammie in the Junior WC and since then it was recurring constantly.   It seems to trouble him every time after scoring a long range try - eg against the Reds and the WP on Saturday.

I think that he should be given ample opportunity to recover properly and the problem should be addressed on a professional and efficient basis.  I am sure it could be crrected on that basis.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3270
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 10:08:54

garethedwards

Status: Squad member
Posts: 148
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 13, 2012, 16:18:05


If you were BOK coach.... I'd fire the kicking, backline and defensive coaches and hire people who are suited to the job. Then I would pick players based on merit.

 
Simple enough, but in practice it would never happen ;)

 

 

 

I am not saying that the current set-up is the Utopia, but what are the alternatives?

Defencive coach. Nienaber in place of McFarlane? Before moving to the Bok squad, the Bulls' defence was not that crap, really.  What is more,  if you play to score tries you have to take chances and if you take chances, you have to be prepared to leak a try or two. In addition, the Stormers' defence has gone down the drain towards the end of the S15. Go check.

 

Backline coach? Who do we have? Fleck? Spencer? The Sharks guy (damn, now I cannot remember his name)? Hawies Fourie? ..........................................Slaptjips? Nah he is crap because he is a Bulls coach, and we do not want another one of those idiots now, do we?

 

Kicking coach? Vlok Cilliers.............. Nahh, ditto Slaptjips.

 


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 10:41:44

well my backroom staff will be if they are willing and not contracted in any other way

 

forwards coach.....Os du randt. his stint with the boks came to a end in a massive forward destruction job of england in england in 2010. in my view the most dominant bok pack i have every seen. brussow was at the helm. if not os then gert small. both are masterfull

backline coach.....carel du plessis. a coach that has coached and understands the dynamics needed to build a attacking unit. either him of hawies fourie. masterfull coach with massive knowledge and in my view very underused. if not carel then the likes of spencer and co will be a part of it for sure

defensive coach. nienaber offcourse world class picks himself.

skills coach. this is very much a new position. in nz and at the wallies they generally have this in local teams and work from the bottom up approach. in south africa this position does not even feature at all. my skills coach will be the likes of spencer ext. this will be a consultant position offcourse as for me this position will also be used by super rugby teams to employ him. this consultant will be assited by ceryal gelder (sorry i think this is how you spell her name)...which assisted jake as well. visual coach to work on players hand eye skills. she will enforce drills that the respective unions will adopt and use to ensure a broader base of skills development. same goes for the attacking consultant

attacking consultant. i will love to see a campese in that position. masterfull thinker. or danie gerber. henry honiball

kicking consultant..percy did a amazing job and to me he was the reason that morne was decent last year at the RWC.

 

there is a lot of backroom staff but there is options where the one coach or consultant can cover more than one area. the skills coach and attacking consultant is a must in my view of the type of game that i want to play.

the likes of percy can cover the kicking role/backline/attacking role or carel can cover the attacking and backline ext.

the consultants will be centrally contracted by saru and will be used by super rugby teams to ensure continuity and skills transfer to there respective coaching structures.

 

this is all make believe ofcourse but that is my honest view. focusing on skills and attack will be my biggest driving force. this will compliment my playing pattern and wil be the winning formula that we need to play total rugby.

 

a attack minded high ball possesion running playing pattern. fuse that with our forward power, size and our natural great defensive. then you have a perfect [removed]tail of winning rugby

 

 


garethedwards

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 240
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 13:28:23

Personally I wouldn't be so hung up on SA based coaches, we have a bad mindset at the top and that filters down. We are in need of change and that change needs to happen at the every top, else all our talented players will get stuck in a rugby game that is 5 years old and losing touch with NH rugby.


Ceradyne

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3270
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 14:10:54

@Carpet. Still not many names being thrown around. While Os were involved Coenie was a real "boggelruggie" scrummer. During the English tests somebody mentioned how he was suddenly scrumming with a straight back when he came on in the frist test. Spencer? Really?

 

Percy? What did he do for Morne? Morne was at the top of his kicking when he got to the Boks. It was during the 2011 TN that his kicking started going down. It picked upo again and during the RWC he started missing a few again.

 

If Nienaber was so great, then why did the Stormers' defence start going down the tube during the second half of the S15? I quoted the stats on another thread recently.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 14:29:58

@garethedwards my thoughts as well. inorder for  us to change our mindset we need coaching staff that is not bogged down by negative mindsets either. so a internnational will fit the bill perfectly i think. to me.

 

the few names that i mentioned are just that names. the goal is for me to enable positions and create a backroom structure that can sustain and implement the style that i want to play. percy has a wealth of expierence and has over 100 tests worth of input to give. that knowledge cant be measured. nienaber in terms of stats is great. the defense was just cracked due to smart attacking play. shows proper smart attack with the new rules will always trump defence. its not nienabers fault that the stormers's head coach cant even coach himself out of a paper bag


Apollo

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 29
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 22:09:47

I can see that not one of you coach at any level... Having a team without any injuries is a dream and that will not happen. Full stop.

 

Secondly many of you choose players like Goosen, Taute, Burger, Vermeulen, Du Toit, Coenie for NOW?... Injuries mean that they did not play AT ALL, so there is no "form" at all either. You criticise a coach that selects players who's form maybe aren't great, yet all the injured players you choose are all selected based on reputation, because they HAVE NO FORM... How the hell can they have any sort of form if they don't play???

 

I know your standard reply will be that "It's hypothetical", but that is a load of crap... Hypothetical teams don't play hypothetical rugby on hypothetical fields in hypothetical competitions... You select from what you have available and you play with that team... And that is why coaching at international level is much, much tougher than anyone of you will EVER be able to handle...


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1968
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 14, 2012, 23:02:51

Gee whizz Apollo. We dont all honestly believe that we are Bok coaches. Thats why we said if we had the luxury of selecting a fully fit team. We really just sussing who we think is showing promise for the future and if they were all fit, who would you like to see in the next game. No one said we holding a gun to the coaches head to play injured players or players with poor form! As the explanation of the forum goes, the mention of the word "fully fit!"

I am sure that if we were Bok coach, we would select from what we have but you see Apollo, we are not so we can afford to be "hypothetical" and discuss what we would "like" to see happen if it were possible.

Im pretty sure the coaching staff are not reading our posts taking notes so dont be afraid to join in at the thought of being "hypothetical" or wrong. Only Beeno is wrong so dont worry about that ;-)

Let me leave you with this. "Form is temporary, class is permanent!" All players mentioned above are class. Its not like they have snapped their legs that they never going to come back or their form willo be so severely dented. They nursing little niggles and with a bit of fitness training, they right back into it with their usual good form.


Apollo

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 29
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 15, 2012, 11:12:56

It is still a 100% futile exercise. Just take one example... Like many others I would love to see Goosen develop to become the best...

 

But firstly, he is injured... So we wish away the injury... And we wish him back to fitness, and we wish him back to form. We also wish that his shoulder would not influence him mentally and that his defence will be okay. And we basically "wish" the same for all the other players, all at the same time and all of them should be in good form also magically at the same time... Fitness is one thing form is something completely different... I could just as well say, if Naas Botha was fully fit and 100% in form I might still select him... Or while Goosen is recovering from injury, Bekker falls apart again... There are too many variables to make this of any value.

 

Your thread title is "If you were BOK coach...." <--- Even put in the non-standard fourth dot

Which means you should be placed in the same position the Bok coach is in... So injured players cannot be in contention... Unfit players should not be in contention... Players that have not played for let's say one month or more should not be in contention...

 

Add onto that some posters that allege that Goosen would "of" (which should be "have") had 5 caps by the time he faced the All Blacks... So he was going to be played fo four tests with an injured shoulder then?

 

Someone else said "Immediate team, everyone fit", which are two mutually exclusive terms... Immediate means NOW and everyone is not fit... And if everyone is fit, it cannot be NOW... And if it is not NOW, whenever it is, will, Bismark, Coetzee, Etzebeth, Frans, etc, still be in form...

 

All this thread proves is that it is easy to criticise the current coaches, as being "conservative", "with a negative mindset", and most of the selections here also implies tha Heyneke has no clue about rugby... Added to that the fact that the assisstants are useless... All of which reflects on Heyeneke as those were HIS choices... This basically means that all of those willing to criticise see themselves as better than Meyer when it comes to team selections, the development of game-plans, patterns of play, individual positional coaching, etc...

 

I am just placing it into perspective... While you are all so willing to criticise while looking at your own fantasy teams, how many will be willing to "do the job" with the real problems (injuries, form, individual skills, age of players, lack of experience, political interference, etc) present... How many of you will be able to "walk in Meyer's shoes without falling on the first step"...


Ek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1464
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 15, 2012, 11:29:34
My bu we are pedantic today .... <--- see fourth Dot....


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1968
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 15, 2012, 11:35:04

 Mate, no one is question Heynecke Meyer here. You are looking way too deep into this instead of having light hearted fun. None of us said "I would do a better job than Meyer!" or "Meyer is missing a trick here!" We are just sharing opinions due to what we have seen over the course of the Super 15 and what we would like to see if we had the opportunity. SA rugby is full of politics, hence the selection issues Heynecke faces and we know that. I listed in the introduction to remove politics and just name your bok dream team basically with players from now.

 

Loosen up. You trying to send clever but its not working. Everyone else shared their opinions, we dont need you to state the obvious. If we were actually the Bok coach, we would not be having light hearted fun on this blog!


Boklogic

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1968
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 15, 2012, 11:35:04

 Mate, no one is question Heynecke Meyer here. You are looking way too deep into this instead of having light hearted fun. None of us said "I would do a better job than Meyer!" or "Meyer is missing a trick here!" We are just sharing opinions due to what we have seen over the course of the Super 15 and what we would like to see if we had the opportunity. SA rugby is full of politics, hence the selection issues Heynecke faces and we know that. I listed in the introduction to remove politics and just name your bok dream team basically with players from now.

 

Loosen up. You trying to sound clever but its not working. Everyone else shared their opinions, we dont need you to state the obvious. If we were actually the Bok coach, we would not be having light hearted fun on this blog!


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 15, 2012, 11:41:08

@apollo

apollo was the god of the sun accourding to the greeks. he was creative and a thinker....but looking at your posts there is nothing creative nore sunny about your failed logic

 

my posts that i made is intended towards building stucture and maintaining sucess across all levels of pro rugby. the names that i mentioned are names that i know from people in the coaching ferternity and from the people that know a thing or 2 about rugby. theses people command respect in there respective roles. the posts that we are making are in regards building structure and building a style of play that is competive in almost every game.

 

the options that i was mentioning like the skills coach and attacking coach reflects the style that i personally feels is in touch with the reality of how the game is meant to be played and building towards a winning game pattern. if there game pattern evolves and the respective plans work then we will reach a stage that it does not a matter which coach we employ our sides will continue to perform and be a winning team.

 

i am a coach myself and i do understand that the game is moving at a rapid rate. so evolving and building a better pattern of play and player development will in the long run enable the players to have the best possible chance of being the best. our sides in the past have just focused on certain areas without building on that and working on there weakneses. which is by far backline play and skills. so dont look blindly at my names. the point i am tryining to make is that there must be mindset change.

 

i never said i want to the coach but i am quite sure with the level of talent and resources at meyer's whim i am sure i can at least give it a bash.

 

the argument we are trying to make is the approach and tactics needs to be different to be the best. the public comments that meyer and co made about our backs not being good and they only focuses on kicking instead ofher keys areas is the reason why so many are concerned. the collective members of this forum knows that the kicking mule defence only 10 man game wont be a winning formula. not against the best in the world at least over a sustained lenght and period of time. being dominant means you must be dominant from 1 to 15 on the pitch..


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9309
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 15, 2012, 12:09:52

 Problem with you Moz is that you speak the biggest load of [removed] out there. Starting with Steph du Toit being out of his depth, you were proven completely wrong on this front by the facts of that match - FACT

As for our best centre, please dont tell me that is Jean......what a joke, he might have been the best 5 years ago......he is long past it. Our best centres are Frans, JP, JJ, Taute, Whitehead and Jordaan.

Your problem is that you are stuck in the past, you bang on about Meyer and his conservatism or Bulls bias.......but you are no better......for you Jean, Habana, Morne and Schalk would be the answer to us beating NZ and co - you are delusional, we need fresh, creative players who represent the new, not players past their prime hoping to compete with NZ on the strength of experience.

My side is the perfect side to beat the Kiwi's......man for man they are better than the Kiwi's but for 10, but with Goosen we have a Carter in the making. Your side is yesterday, mine is tomorrow.

Given Etzebeth and Bekker are my starters, who the hell would you select as your bench lock, let me guess Johan Muller???????

And wow imagine moving Frans to 15.......ouch

CJ on the bench - bloody hell man, talk about conservative and way off the mark, CJ cant make the Lions starting 15, he is playing off the bench, what does that tell you?

 


Apollo

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 29
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 15, 2012, 13:07:50

Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun, truth and prophecy, healing, plague, music, poetry, and more. Truth is the one that matters... And if the truth does not fit into your definition of a sunny disposition, then so be it...

 

You see, you once again go on about the "kicking mule defence only 10 man game" crap, which is an assumption. The first half in the second test is the type of play Heyneke is aiming for (the truth) and that is definitely NOT a ten man kicking game (also a truth)...

 

The Boks played three games, where they had very little chance to prepare under Meyer and it was in a test series where only a few before-hand gave them a chance in any case... A series they actually won comfortably in the end... And now, even before they play any games, everybody is already convinced that it is going to be a boring style of play, based on the boring Bulls game... So boring that it yielded the highest return in terms of number of tries scored.

 

All I see is assumptions and more assumtions... One can only make a judgement, once you have facts (truths)... And those truths, include the fact that there are injured players, not available, which means you have to make the best of what you do have available.

 

You can never build a sustainable structure based on what you might have available one day, if you are lucky...

 

And you must be smoking some seriously good stuff if you think Meyer said that the backs he has available is not good enough and that he therefore focuses on kicking instead... He never said that and he also will not say something as absurd as that.


Beeno1

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11993
RE: If you were BOK coach....
August 15, 2012, 14:05:50

Snapster Burger at 29 is not past it quite yet. The issue with him is whether or not he will recover from injury. Some think this long layoff will have prolonged his rugby career provded injuries heal. You do not pass from being the best player in Sa in 2011 to past it in a few months. He provides real playing ability and immense experience and leadership.

Habana is still playing good rugby as is Jean - who probably has one more season in him where he shares the center role and helps develope his successor. Whitehead is not international class.

As for Frans at 15 well I only hope lambie gets his mojo back as he has been a bit off. I am not yet convinced he is the answer at 15. If we experience problems at 15 Frans does become an option to consider.

 


Leave a reply:

You need to be logged in to leave a reply.
 
 

From The Sideline