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1621 Topic: Test team
radtad1

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 273
Test team
July 14, 2012, 22:32:55

After getting three teams into the semis and with the Stormers heading the competition and the return of Schalk, Vermulen and a few others, the BOK squad must now certainly be the favourites to take out the Rugby Championship.

 

It proves to me clearly that SA have amazing depth and with the under 20's success I can see 2015 RWC being our year.

 

The so called power that is NZ rugby has been smashed a big blow and it is very evident how weak they are with only 2 teams and to be honest I cannot see theChiefs going any further they have been annihalated in their last two games.

 

Bring on the test series bring on the whineabees, the weak argies and the over hyped kiwis

 

Go theBokkies


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9292
RE: Test team
July 14, 2012, 23:14:01

The test team would be easy to select right now:

15. Lambie 14. JP 13. JJ 12. Frans 11. Habana 10. Jantjies/Grant 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Jannie 4. Etzebeth 5. Bekker 6. Kolisi/Brussouw 7. Alberts 8. Coetzee


green

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 179
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 03:42:10

After a great Super round robin series for SA, my Bok 22 would come from (based on form):

 

1. Beast

2. Bismarck

3. Jannie

4. Etzebeth

5. Bekker

6. Brussouw

7. Alberts

8. Vermeulen (Coetzee if Duane still injured)

9. Hougaard

10. Grant

11. Habana

12. Fransie

13. Juan DJ

14. JP

15. Lambie (Aplon if Patrick still injured)

16. Strauss

17. Oosthuizen (Brian Mujati if Coenie still injured)

18. Flip VDM

19.Coetzee (Kanko if Coetzee plays at 8)

20. Ruan Pienaar

21. JJ Engelbrecht

22. Aplon (Joe Pieterson if Aplon plays 15)


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12914
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 05:05:47

A girl

Dream on my friend.   There is no way that in the four nations De Villiers will not be in the team as captain.   Engelbrecht may be the future - but not in the tri-nations.   Jantjies remains poor - even though he played better today than in previous games this year - he is a defensive sieve and he should not even be on the bench.   I noticed today that the Bulls ran at him and over him once again.   I think that Morne is poor - so I would suggest Grant as an interim selection until Goosen is available.  

Practically the team I suggested as realisitc is as follows:-

15   Lambie

14   Pietersen

13   De Villiers

12  Steyn - he better start playing better though

11  Habana

10  Grant

  9  Hougaard - on wet conditions I would start with pienaar though

  8  Kankowski

  7  Alberts

  6   Coetzee

  5   Bekker

  4   Etzebeth

  3   Du Plessis

  2  Du Plessis

  1   The Beast

Kolisis is not ready yet - and Kankowski is a better option at 8.   Brussow could not even make the bench - as he vanished from sight yesterday when the going got tough - other than giving away to penalties.   I do not think that Meyer rates him and he may not be even in the squad at all.  I agree that Engelbrecht made headway and could end up on the bench.   However, Meyer would have a fit - the team would only include 1 Bulls player.

Green

Van der Merwe on the bench as lock - blaas my sie.  I would rather have Kruger on the bench than him.   I rate Coetzee - despite his youth - as one of the top loosies in world rugby today - end of story.   To say he msust be on the bench and put in Brussow is crazy.    If Vermeulen is back - I wouod play him at 8 - with Kankowski on the bench.   Unfortunately no place for Brussow in such an event - he is not ewven 10% compared to what Coetzee can and do deliver.

Oosthuizen will NOT be playing in the 4-Nations and we have a problem - since both Werner Kruger and Greyling is absolutely useless.    Mujati - interesting - but very unlikely.  

 


green

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 179
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 09:05:53

Mike,

Like I said at the beginning of my post, this is the 22 I would select and I firmly believe that we need a specialist fetcher and Heinrich is the best in SA for that job. We could all write our wish list, but knowing Meyer and the hard on he has for the Bools and for size, his 22 would most likely come from:

1. Beast  2. Bissie  3. Jannie 4. Etzebeth  5. Bekker 6. Coetzee 7. Alberts 8. Spies

9. Hougaard  10. Morne  11. Habana  12. Frans  13. JDV - captain 14. JP  15. Kirchner

16. Strauss  17. Werner  18. Juandre/Flip  19. Kanko  20. Ruan Pienaar  21. Engelbrecht (but only because meisiekind is going to japan)  22. Bjorn Basson

 

The gameplan will be the usuall pressure cooker skop, jaag en donder that we've been seeing from since forever. Bash them upfront, Hougie/Morne to hoist the up and unders with Habana and JP to chase. Usual crap and if executed with a small degree of error, those galloping backs from NZ will bury us again. Jean "hasbeen" DeVilliers has already been guarenteed his place as captain...what a joke!! He gets bumped off and handed off tackles with regularity, yet HM still thinks he is the man for the job....he's going to bury us come the four nations.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9292
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 09:59:16

 Mike this is my test team, not Meyers. There is no way in hell I would play Jean ahead of JJ - its chalk and cheese

Frans better start playing better - what rugby are you watching?

So green you would have Werner Kruger on the bench, the guy that got slaughted by the Poms and is the weak link in the Bulls pack - good one!!!

Anyone who continues to select Morne needs to have their head checked is all I can say


green

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 179
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 10:50:35

Saff,

You obviously have not read my posts....the first one depicts my choice 22 and the second post depicts what I think HM would select. I would never dream of using the names of Werner and Bokke in the same sentence.


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9292
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 10:54:13

 Sorry green my mistake - I did just look at the side!!

If Mujati was available, he would be my starting tighthead, sadly Meyer has not pursued him and he should have.

de Jongh can never be a test centre, he is too small. You dont get 87kg outside centres playing test rugby for a reason


green

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 179
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 12:01:33

No problem on the mistake Saff, we all make them. I knew you would disagree with Juan DJ at 13, but he's punches way above his weight and is lethal on attack.  Would love to see him play with Fransie inside him. Unfortunately Jean plays with him at the Stormers and we all know JDV has no idea how to put his backline into space.

 

BTW there are and have been many great outside centres whose weight has been same and even less than JDJ's 88kgs, examples:

Danie Gerber; 88kgs

Will Carling: 90kgs ( just 2 more than JDJ)

Philippe Sella: 84kgs

Jeremy Guscott: 84kgs

Japie Mulder: 77kgs


Arthur John

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 647
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 22:26:39

 A girl...we are all now more than ever convinced that you are a NZ selector attempting to influence the SA selectors.

With his brillant game against the Bulls you still select KAK at #10....whow perhaps you should watch the game prior to commenting.

At this rate he won't even get an offer from the Queens.

Two things to remember before you reply:

1.Be Honest

2. Be nice.

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9292
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 22:44:15

Green, Danie was many moons ago, the game has moved on somewhat since. I am talking about modern day test rugby. You wont find a single centre under 90kg's playing for the major countries today.

de Jongh is no attacking force at all, he has done nothing at all all S15, bar yesterdays game.

As for Mulder weighing 77kg, that is the biggest joke I have seen in ages. So he was lighter than Aplon. Wherever you got those stats from, they are completely wrong. Mulder was a big guy, closer to 100kg


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9292
RE: Test team
July 15, 2012, 22:49:21

I was close green - Japie was 99kg

http://www.sarugby.net/playerprofile.aspx?id=18299&category=&leagueid=0


Sharkbok

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3695
RE: Test team
July 16, 2012, 00:43:29

 Danie Gerber would probably make any Super15 side and test side- even at 89kg. Although if he played today he would probably be put on a creatine diet like the rest of them to get bigger. 

Dejong is not that big- but if he tackles a centre that weighs 100 kg- he is only 13% less than weight mass. 

Most centres in South Africa are in the 90s, like 92, 93 etc. So 5 kg or so difference is about 5%- so it is very marginal. Given that the Stormers have such a good defence someone is doing the tackling for them. The Stormers probably have the lightest backline in the whole tournament- with Jean Devilliers probably the biggest.

So a few kgs is nothing to squible about. Tackling Centres over 100kg is a problem- but we dont have any centers that are over 100Kg that are contenders for the boks anyway. 


green

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 179
RE: Test team
July 16, 2012, 04:47:58

Saff, I knew Japie Mulder was bigger than 77kg, but thats what the stats says. Think it was wikipedia or statsguru...not sure now, but I knew that a few here would hit the roof.

 

Bottom-line, A girl, your opinion is just that, an opinion and so is mine but I just wish that JDJ gets a chance at outside centre with Fransie at 12.

Sharkbok, you make a good point that sort of backs up my argument.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12914
RE: Test team
July 16, 2012, 10:07:29

It is not what we think about team selection - we have different ideas about it and it is interesting discussions - it is who Meyer is going to select that would ultimately make up the team.

Meyer will in the first instance pick his favourite Blue Bull players and keep to his captain for the remainder of the year.   His favourite players are the following:-

Kirchner, De Villiers, Morne Steyn, Hougaard and Spies.

Then he would look at other players such as the following:-

JP Pietersen, Francois Steyn, Etzebeth, Bekker, the two props in the team and Du Plessis.

That leaves three vancies - one on the wing and the two loosies.   My guess is that those positions will be filled by Habana, Alberts and Coetzee.

The team will hence be as follows:-

15  Kichner

14  Pietersen

13 De Villiers

12 Francois Steyn

11 Habana

10 Morne Steyn

  9  Hougaard

  8  Spies

  7  Alberts

  6  Coetzee

  5  Bekker

  4  Etzebeth

  3  Jannie Du Plessis

  2  Bismarck Du Plessis

  1  The Beast

We can argue till we are blue in teh face - but that will be Meyer's team.   The problems that we face is that three of the Blue Bulls players are questionable.   I started off rating the four Blue Bull players in the team and came to the following conclusion after three matches:-

  Kirchner    -     5

 Steyn         -     5

 Spies        -      4

Not really brilliant marks for qualification for Springbok selection.   They will be in the team though - despite the marks given - because Meyer has a playing strategy in mind revolving around Morne Steyn.   The main thing is ten man rugby - high kick and charge.   That strategy can work if the kicks are accurate and the charging players get the ball in time.    Repetitive usage of the strategy is doomed and it merely serve to hand the ball back to the opposing teams.   For Meyer the backline is decorative and only there for defensive purposes and for chargoing after aimless kicks.   Morne Steyn's problem is that his strategic kicking has deteriorated and the opponents knows eactly every time what is about to happen and take counter-measures accordingly.   I do not think we can play the All Blacks in accordance with a fixed kicking plan like that - they will couinter-attack and render us in a bad position. The strategy should actually change - but it will not.  

Insofar as the three specific Blue players rated above are concerned  I would like to mention a few of their fatures in playing:-

Kirchner is good in attacking play - but hopeless under high balls kicked at him where he has to face oncoming opponents.   His defence is questionable - but Meyer would argue that the ankle injury of Lambie is ruling him out of contention - so he has to go for Kirchner.  

Morne Steyn's goal kicking has shown a slight improvement recently - but his strategic kicking is poor and he is a very poor linkage with the rest of the backline - so attacking backline movements are really out.  Steyn used to be run at by oppoinents - because of defensive deficiencies - but his defence has improved somewhat.  and although the opponents will still try that strategy - it is unlikely to be successful.  Steyn would not be replaced at any cost - even though Grant is a much better link with his backline and can vary his game better.  The ultimate solution to the problem could be Goosen - but in the interim Grant is in fact a better all round flyhalf than Steyn, but he wouldd never be picked ahead of Steyn.

Spies is really nthe worst selection of the lot.   He has the speed of  any wing - but for the rest he has never really adjusted to forward play.   He is a poor number 8 and really should never be considered for selection.   He vanishes out of sight for 75 minutes in any game he plays in and his ball handling skills are poor - he loses balls regularly in tackle soituations and for me any team containing Spies effectively consists of 14 players and not 15.

I would rather have a different selection and instead play Lambie at 15 and replace Morne Steyn with Grant.  At 8 I believe that Meyer should pick Vermeulen - if he performs well in the semi-final of Super 15 - or play Kankowski at 8.   In the altternative I would like to see Alberts at 8. move Coetzee to 7 and play Kolisi at 6.

The old argument on Brussow will follow in such an event.   I believe that Brussow will not be considered for the following reasons.   In the game against the Stormers Brussow was effective in poor playing conditions.   However he gave away a penalty as well.   Against the Bulls - despite his try - he was ineffective and gave away two penalties.   Against the Sharks he played well in the first half and then vanished from sight - he was injured at one stage and that may have affected his game.   Even then he gave away two penslties.   That means he gave away 15 points in three games and that is where Meyer's argument comes in - too much of a penalty machine.

Personally i think that brussow is a good loosie - but he has a number of deficiencies.   He is a strong - but slow runner and a good defender - but there are better loosies in SA. and he is too small and slow to make a difference in maul situations and in line outs.   However, ultimately it is the penalty issue that would be decisive.

I have not mentioned the issue of the bench.   here Meyer would select the following bench players:-

16  Strauss

17 Greyling 

18 Kruger

19 Potgieter

20 Pienaar

21 Engelbrecht

22 Lambie/Aplon.  - Lambie if he is fit - otherwise Aplon.

My main problem is Greyling - he is useless and a trouble-maker looking constantly for penalties.   There are much better props in SA, but the Blue Bull tag would help in this case.  

Comments please.

 


Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9292
RE: Test team
July 16, 2012, 10:10:41

Its not so much an opinion, its more the modern trend. In modern day tests you dont find players weighing less than 90kg playing wing, centre and fullback. The benchmark is more like 95kg and this is for a reason.

Space is at a premium at test level, defence patterns are so structured and tight that players have to impose themselves phyisically in order to breach the advantage line. While de Jongh does punch above his body weight and technically is a good tackler, his lack of bulk does not afford him the opportunity to take contact, drive forward and maintain forward momentum - a prerequisite for a test centre. Same as in defence, he may be able to make openfield tackles, but in traffic he is not able to drive the opposition back.

Bottom line is that the little guy can operate at S15 level, for he needs space to beat his man - but come semi final time of the S15, you will see him struggle as the semi begins to replicate the test arena.

There is no place for small guys in modern day test rugby, if there was we would see these guys representing their countries today - we dont. Not a single test side has a de Jongh size centre at 13 - for a reason


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Test team
July 16, 2012, 10:48:38

@green your stats for outside centers are from the amateur days and japie mulder ???? are you serious ????

ATTENTION ALL if we go up against the AB and wallies without a proper fetcher i promise you will be sighing our own death warrant. kollisi and coetzee are not fecthers....that is a well known fact. to be honest they cant even fetch there own washing and some gentle man here want then to compete against the likes of mccaw, po[removed] and maybe matt todd ????. we will be raped by the Ab and wallies come breakdown time. for the love of everything i can understand what is hard to understand about the role of employing a player that combats to ensure quick ball and slows down the other teams ball.

there is on average 10 times more rucks and lineouts and scrums so it makes sense the pick players that can give one a advantage in that position.

@A girl your are right. the backs are in the 90's because that give them the righ mix of mobilty and size to ensure they contest the tackle area.

brain o driscoll ext all are mid 90's. its just the islanders of AB that are heavier than that sometimes. but saying that size is not everything but at test level the lighter players do tend to be no shows.


green

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 179
RE: Test team
July 16, 2012, 14:20:59

Saff, technically you put forward a strong case in terms of size of the test player. But how do we explain Leigh Halfpenny at fullback for Wales...one of the best in the test scene?? Mils Muliana played as a leightweight fullback for almost 100 games for the AB's without been exposed due to his size. He beefed up a bit in the latter stages of his career but then forfeited most of his attacking flare as a result of the extra weight.

 

Another dynamo has been Shane Williams, IRB player of the year in 2008 who weighs in at 80kg and then theres also  fullback and winger, Jason Robinson of England, at 81kg.

There are heaps of smaller type players (weighing in the eighties) who were very sucessful in backline positions at test level. To name a few more: Breyton Paulse, Brent Russell, James o Connor, Cristiaan Cullen, Vincent Clerc, Matt Giteau, etc.

 

The thing that all these smaller size players have in common is for what they lack in size and strength, they make up in speed, acceleration, agility and creativity and Juan DeJongh fits the mould. If given the opportunity to play alongside Fransie Steyn, he will bring these mesmerising skills to the fore and that is why I believe he should be in the Bok team.

 

@ Carpetmuncher, see my earlier post regarding Japie Mulder.


carpetmuncher

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1396
RE: Test team
July 16, 2012, 14:44:45

its a well known fact that there is more traffic in the centers than any other position on the pitch. so the players get tested there almost every phase. all those players you talked about green are either wingers or no 10"s not centers. giteau played very well in 12 but was on defence moved out to eiter wing or full back.

if you have a weak defence in international level then you will be caught out as a center.


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